I am wondering about good click and slash games design. Games like diablo, sacred, guild wars, SWG, WOW and NWN. From the games I mentioned, I didnt play WOW. So from what I have played I remember diablo and NWN as good battle gameplay games, but I dont remember much why. I think in diablo the isometric view made it easier to select the opponents, also you could use the terrain to your advantage. Like doors and walls, and you could evade projectile by walking fast enough before being hit. I dont remeber much how was the cliking in diablo, did you had to click for each attack or was it enough to click once? In guild wars, for instance, it is harder to click on the opponent you want to attack. Especially if he is surrounded by other players. So I think diablo had the best combat gameplay from the games I played. What do you think would be a good click and slash combat gameplay? and what do you know about WOW? since I didnt play it.

WoW has a, in my opinion, easy to learn and not nearly worth it to 'master. Click auto-attack and the character will start to attack the target. Click a spell and it'll cast a spell. No skill whatsoever invloved. I didn't like NWN too much, basically because I didn't ever understand it, but a cousin of mine have played it for a few years (as in since it was released more or less), so it's ought to have something in it.


By the way, Diablo had you click on an enemy and you'd attack once. Hold the mouse and you'd hack'n'slash continously. Good? Not really. But it worked.

I tend to not like 'click and slash' games mainly because the combat is uninvolved and boring. The only way I would find it NOT boring is if it were a little different:

- The majority of the gameplay DOES NOT involve combat. If it were a management sim or something and combat was only a small factor, then it wouldnt be as bad.

- The player could 'shape' how the attacks landed by selecting different strategies in the middle of the fight. WOW did this a little by having combat skills hotkeyed so you could perform a special move during combat. That helped, but still, there needs to be more for me.

- The player could 'shape' their character so that when they engaged in combat, their fighting style would reflect how the player designed their character.

The change could be as simple as having a slider available that could be manipulated during combat to make the character more offensive or more defensive. But I think the player needs something to mix up the combat rut or it gets boring quickly.

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Original post by Omegavolt - The player could 'shape' their character so that when they engaged in combat, their fighting style would reflect how the player designed their character.

That's what I'm talking about. I think it would be entirely acceptable to have shallow, one-click combat, but let me train my character in a deeper training mode so that he'll behave differently during the hacking parts. Give me three or four styles or stances, and let me choose which of them to bring to bear against an opponent. If I get beaten, but excape, then I can rework my fighting style to more effectively oppose that enemy. Fights would be short and purposeful, not sucking up 80% of gameplay time, like turn-based menu-driven battles always do. I think that would be really neat to see.

I remember a old game called "Die by the Sword" it had free sword movement controlled by the mouse, you could make combos and chop off enemy on body parts.
It was acctually very cool, but didn't have magic or skills which made it a bit limited.

What if you use an RPG-type skill development system, and change the click from "slash" or "attack" or whatever simple command it represents now into a targetting system? Have it be a command to "Get 'im!"

So I have my Musketeer on the screen, and he's facing two drunken Spaniards at a roadside tavern, and I click on a wagon. He runs over to the wagon and ducks behind it while the first Spaniard fires a pistol at him. The cover protects my guy, I switch to my own pistol and fire at the second Spaniard with a click. He goes down, so I switch to my rapier and click on the first guy, who has drawn his own sword rather than reload his gun. This click isn't just a "stab" command, but rather serves as an "engage" command. My guy dashes over to the Spaniard and they start to fence. At any time in this fight I can click away to have my guy disengage and retreat, or I can click on my opponent to initiate a "special move", like a shoulder thrust or disorienting shout.

If the Spaniard is better than my guy, then my guy will start to show signs of tiring, or maybe receive a few cuts, reducing his HP. If I survive the fight, I can train him up to fence more effectively against the Spanish style, and if I meet that guy again, I'll whup him. Or just bring a second gun.

Whatever you use, there has to be some higher strategy involved over just clicking on enemies. In Diablo, for example, I tended in only enjoy the game as a magic wielder (sorcerer/sorceress etc.), as at least then you have to switch between magic types. But that still wasn't really good enough for me.

I play as a Paladin. I like to be constantly switching auras, choosing different attack types and luring enemies into bottlenecks so I can chop at them more conveniently. I think that the game is a lot of fun if you set about it tactically, instead of just choosing easy fights and alternating between the "chop" and "drink potion" buttons until the enemies are all dead. Multiplayer, of course, makes averything more complex and rewarding.

One of the Fallout games let you leave it in real-time for fights, and that was cool. Running around corners for cover and switchign guns on-the-fly was a fun and largely mouse-driven experience.

Rather than try to get all th emoves of a menu-based Final Fantasy-type game into a real time hack&slash, take advantage of what those other games can't offer. Distance, timing and terrain can make even a one-attack system deep and engaging, so long as the AI isn't completely mindless. If you demand more active control over the blow-by-blow fights, how about a simple system like the one in Sid Meier's "Pirates!"?

I find the NWN engine to be slow and plodding. All the missing and the long time between each move is just unnecessary. Guild Wars seemed like a similar, but much faster version. I wish I could play NWN with the Guild Wars battle engine.

I personally always play as Rangers. Because of the speed at which Guild Wars runs, I can play as an archer pretty much non-stop. Even if I get into melee combat, my bow is still a decent weapon that I don't need to switch to a sword (which my ranger would not be suited for). In NWN, I can get one shot off and then have to switch to swords, which is not fun for me, I want to be an archer.

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Original post by Omegavolt I tend to not like 'click and slash' games mainly because the combat is uninvolved and boring. The only way I would find it NOT boring is if it were a little different: - The majority of the gameplay DOES NOT involve combat. If it were a management sim or something and combat was only a small factor, then it wouldnt be as bad. - The player could 'shape' how the attacks landed by selecting different strategies in the middle of the fight. WOW did this a little by having combat skills hotkeyed so you could perform a special move during combat. That helped, but still, there needs to be more for me. - The player could 'shape' their character so that when they engaged in combat, their fighting style would reflect how the player designed their character. The change could be as simple as having a slider available that could be manipulated during combat to make the character more offensive or more defensive. But I think the player needs something to mix up the combat rut or it gets boring quickly.

Exactly my thoughts, Great minds think alike.

This is one of the reasons why Dungeon Siege 1 turned me off but Dungeon Siege 2 seemed like a HUGE difference, so whoever did not play Dungeon Siege 1 and/or 2 should do so because for example in 2 you could switch between the combat modes, so it could be like in Dungeon Siege 1 where you click and slash until enemies are eliminated or you could do it the Dungeon Siege 2 way which has you playing more or less like in Diablo where you have to either click many times to execute many attacks or click and hold. I find this to be much more interactive.

By what I said in the paragraph above, I think if one would create a combat system, especially in MMORPGs, they should allow players to switch between the 2 modes, so for those who want to play just for the combat part (Grinding) could do it easier, while if someone else prefers to interact with the game the person would switch the interactive combat, aka one click to attack once or click and hold.

If one would create a system merely for Grinding (the first method), s/he would have to at least add some elements of interaction such as what you mentioned, Omegavolt, so it doesn't get VERY boring and VERY repetitive.