So i was playing world of Warcraft the other day, the big budget MMORPG game from the guys called Blizzard who made a series of uber RTS's who then decided to go MMOing, which has a lot of different game systems a-typical to MMORPG's, such as a combat system, a craft system, a magic system etc. So i made a dwarf, got to one of their villages colonels, started killing cute little bunnies for their flesh (...yeah, their flesh, i wasn’t giggling maniacally at the time or anything), the usual, you know. So yeah, then i level up some, gain some new equipment and that and then time comes for me to learn a craft. A good warrior needs to get a job right, other than slaying the horrible monsters who would slaughter the town folk and all that. So i decide to do a bit of mining, love mining, nothing more fun than beating at a rock with a pick axe. So i buys me a pick axe, i equip le pick axe, i gets me the mad skilz to mine, i turn on the ore finder (like i can’t just see the ore o0;;...invisible ore! =D) and make my way out to find the ore. Now hears the problem, i start walking out of town and then it dawns on me, i have no idea where the ore is. An ore finder’s grate and all but what map is it on? So i opens a chat box and asks "Where do i go to mine?" after several comments of "Your own arse to mine for shit, noob!" i finally get told the shocking secret. Now I’m no geologist, I’ve never mined in my vacation zone called reality, I’ve barely left my room in my life relatively speaking but...um...isn’t ore, metal ore, mineral ore, any type of rock based ore located underground? o0 don’t you need to dig a hole, a cave or some other sub-terrestrial location to access the ore? Television may have lied to me but those big burly men with their taught rippling abs, solid chests, big strong arms......(o0;;)...are usually underground with big machines digging out the ore. THEY ARE NOT WANDERING IN A FRIGGIN FEILD BEATING SOME BUMPY ASS NODE WITH A TOOTH PICK WHICH THEN VANISHS WHEN IT’S EMPTY!!!...and generally they get ore, not a friggin sign saying "Failed" which really burns me up. Point I’m trying so desperately to make is that with WOW's budget, why the hell didn’t Blizzard make a more realistic game, i expected in a game like that to at least have a cave, a cave with walls. Maybe not fully destructible walls where you can dig your own personal mine but ffs nodes, what the hell! I can’t say I’ve experienced much more of the game, mostly because the fighting gets really dull after lv20, their sub games are stupid (like the frigging mining system, yuck) and the lag, o the lag. You would think people with Blizzards budget would do better. *Climes off soap box*... Siolis

True but they have no ore, like in the wall. They have nodes of ore, but try asking a miner if his job is that convenient.

Siolis

Because it's a game. I'm no fan of WoW either, but come on! There are dragons! Dwarves! Trolls!

Really, why should they put the ore underground? That would just be a major inconvenience for the player.

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Original post by IvanMilles Because it's a game. I'm no fan of WoW either, but come on! There are dragons! Dwarves! Trolls! Really, why should they put the ore underground? That would just be a major inconvenience for the player.

The dragons are underaited (im a Dragon Hart, not happy when dragons are nothing more than barbariens with scales), Dwarves are anoying and drunken and Trolls are idiots.

So having to kill monsters, walk around in a 3d enviroment, collect items and talking to NPC's is an inconvenience to you then. So why did you playing WOW again? =P

I like a shread of realism to my games, if your gonna make me mine, at least gimme a cave and a wall, you slackers.

Siolis

So... why is this in Game Design, again?

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Original post by Siolis why the hell didn’t Blizzard make a more realistic game Siolis

Because it's a fantasy game. If you want something more realistic, go outside.

World of Warcraft is a game. Mario's a plumber, but do you do the stuff of real plumbers in the games? No. Need I say more?

BTW: During the short week in which I played around with WoW, I went on numerous quests on which I had to collect things out of caves. Albeit none were collecting ore, but nonetheless they didn't "slack". In fact, I'd say they worked they're butts off so they could have seamless transitions between outside and cave environments.

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Original post by Oluseyi So... why is this in Game Design, again?

Because I’m commenting on the poor Design of world of warcrafts sub game systems. This is the Design forum so i thought that a comment on a games poor Design should be located in the Design forum. Was i wrong to post a comment on Design in the Design forum?

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Original post by krum Quote: Original post by Siolis Why the hell didn’t Blizzard make a more realistic game? Siolis Because it's a fantasy game. If you want something more realistic, go outside.

Okay then, fair enough. Hey you know, in my next game I’m going to have people fighting 7ft tall blood thirsty demons armed with giant flaming axes and armored with magical Tritainum amour straight from the devils arse itself with nothing but fish. Turn +1 could be the base weapon and you could work you way up to a Shark +10 with added Teeth modifier.

You want make a computer game you have to at least try to get it some what in the ball park of realism or it just looks stupid. Ok maybe we don’t need to have a mining company who work 20 hour days and get though rock at 1cm per hour but i would at least like to have a wall with ore in, even if the wall doesn’t break down when you hit it with a pick axe, its better than a fucking node.

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Original post by nilkn World of Warcraft is a game. Mario's a plumber, but do you do the stuff of real plumbers in the games? No. Need I say more? BTW: During the short week in which I played around with WoW, I went on numerous quests on which I had to collect things out of caves. Albeit none were collecting ore, but nonetheless they didn't "slack". In fact, I'd say they worked they're butts off so they could have seamless transitions between outside and cave environments.

Mario was created (relativly) eons ago during the time computers still had 8bit graphics. Yesterday i spent 5 hours smashing robots using a giant robot's weapons, pretending to be a pilot of (shock shock horror) a giant robot pilot! That makes sense, doesn’t it? Jack pilots robots, Jack is a nice person, Jack has a robot, Jack destroys evil robots bent on doing evil things. Makes sense, no? Show me one example of a contempery computer game character who, despite his job, dose something off the wall like Mario WHILE in the game they star in, is trying to realistically display a virtual world like what WOW is.

Did i mention the quests, no but i will now. I think the quests are pure excellence. Bulders Gate designers couldn’t have done a better job, they are varied they have a story and make sense. What I’m commenting on is not the quests, not the battle system (although it’s not really my thing) and not how much effort they put into making a RPG. I'm commenting on their quote unquote sub games such as mining which lack any sort of realism where as everything else has clearly been made to a high standard. In my opinion, they let themselves down and it probably wasn’t the fault of the games builders but probably the producers cutting their budget. If you can’t do something right, you shouldn’t include it in a game.

Siolis

Firstly let me say I played WoW in beta and didn't like it, so my comments are not fanboy rhetoric. Right so, sorry but I just can't get my head past you demanding "realism". I mean, have you even considered what this implies, you're suggesting that many of the sub games in WoW lack realism. Thats like saying a space combat simulator is not realistic enough. There is no benchmark for space combat, there is no benchmark for being a dwarf mining in a fantasy world. The realism you seek is a concoction of your imagination.

So perhaps you think the mining system is out of place in the world? Why? What has given you the impression that mining should happen any differently than it does? I agree that mining random patches of ground is a little odd, but its perfectly reasonable, considering how just about every game ever shows mining to be something done to a rock in field. Think of any strategy game that includes mining, plenty of other MMORPGS the list is endless.

As far as I can see its just a simplification of action for the benefit and enhancement of gameplay for the player. Whats less boring:

1) Choosing a mining profession, finding a hole in the ground, walking up and down the same path for the rest of your mining career.
2) Searching the world, avoiding / fighting enemies, meeting other players, and getting a good dose of adventure at the same time.

Thankfully we live in a world overflowing with metaphor, we are blessed to understand abstractions of events and actions. Mario did not involve eating mushrooms, traveling through cloud land, climbing bean stalks and fighting weird reptiles because they didn't have the graphics to do downtown New York justice...

Edit/ I'll bet good money that every game ever uses abstractions of reality to enhance gameplay, if you think about it for even a moment you'll easily see why I'm so confident about this claim. I'll do a tricky one for you.. Gran Turismo, had a car wash option - instead of soaping up the car yourself, or waiting while it's washed the car simply spun round real fast and became clean. You can't tell me thats anything close to realism and yet its used in "The greatest driving simulator ever".

So you see, it's not about realism or making things which are even slightly close to real. It's about designing systems which fit and benefit the primary function of the game. What do you think WoW's core gameplay might be? Do you think mining in caves would have been a benefit or a hindrance?

[Edited by - DogCity on September 11, 2005 11:09:07 AM]

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Original post by DogCity Firstly let me say I played WoW in beta and didn't like it, so my comments are not fanboy rhetoric. Right so, sorry but I just can't get my head past you demanding "realism". I mean, have you even considered what this implies, you're suggesting that many of the sub games in WoW lack realism. Thats like saying a space combat simulator is not realistic enough. There is no benchmark for space combat, there is no benchmark for being a dwarf mining in a fantasy world. The realism you seek is a concoction of your imagination. So perhaps you think the mining system is out of place in the world? Why? What has given you the impression that mining should happen any differently than it does? I agree that mining random patches of ground is a little odd, but its perfectly reasonable, considering how just about every game ever shows mining to be something done to a rock in field. Think of any strategy game that includes mining, plenty of other MMORPGS the list is endless. As far as I can see its just a simplification of action for the benefit and enhancement of gameplay for the player. Whats less boring: 1) Choosing a mining profession, finding a hole in the ground, walking up and down the same path for the rest of your mining career. 2) Searching the world, avoiding / fighting enemies, meeting other players, and getting a good dose of adventure at the same time. Thankfully we live in a world overflowing with metaphor, we are blessed to understand abstractions of events and actions. Mario did not involve eating mushrooms, traveling through cloud land, climbing bean stalks and fighting weird reptiles because they didn't have the graphics to do downtown New York justice. sheesh.

Um...I’m kinda saying that’s just what is wrong. I've played dozens of MMORPG's and consol RPG's and my gripe is that the sub games are crap. I'm currently writing a novel based on a game idea I’ve got which I’ve put aside for the moment but in the game design I’ve got a plan for a realistic mining system, with caves, breakable walls, ore stores, tools, the works and I’ve checked out the C++ code and database handle i would need to do it and its perfectly possible to make. I made the plan because i got sick of mining in the MMORPG, Legend of Mir II: The Three Heroes, BUT AT LEAST THAT HAD A WALL TO MINE!! My problem is that i don’t like the fane attempts people make at what could be a really cool part of a game, hate something, make something better is my attitude.

As for your other comments, yes that’s what i want, to be board by a badly made realistic mining system instead of annoyed with a idiotic node mining system. As i just mentioned, my mining system wouldn’t bore you, it would be entertaining to build your own cave network using tools and to mine and sell ore. To prove that, just take a gander (a look, not the bird) at farm Sims like harvest moon, wide selling game both in the UK and the US as well as the east and that was at least in the ball park of realism.

As i just mentioned in an earlier post, I’m not looking for life emulation, just a little realism to make me feel like I’m playing a game based on a real life activity, not trying to imagine myself playing a game based on a real life activity.

Siolis