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Original post by XVampireX http://www.allrpg.com/elements.php3 Quote: 1. Original Epic Storyline - RPGs contain some sort of grand and epic story that involves the characters and a villian, and usually trying to save the world from destruction or an outside threat

I find it ammusing that they have "original" in the title, but then go on to explain your average typical over-used plot as a requirement of being an RPG.

I also totally disagree with them. You don't need an epic story to have a terrific RPG. Fallout pretty much shoved this theory up collective arses when they sent you out for the water chip. It was a really daring choice to have the player be sent on such an un-heroic chore. I suppose you could say the "Master" was the epic part of the story, but that had little to do with the fun of the overall game. It was just there to give a meaningful end to the game. The RPG Sega Genesis game, Shadowrun, is one of the best examples of this that comes to mind. The only reason I picked up Fallout at the store was because it reminded me of that great Cyberpunk theme that Shadowrun had. You could literally play the game for months without even talking to a story-driven NPC. A game built for stats munchkins.

Of course it's not original in the true sense, but don't you think that no matter what game, even if it's the same "Kill the main villain" storyline, it still has twists? Not every single game is the same thing, the way you GET to the point of killing the main villain is the _original_ part of this statement.

Fallout is an RPG, by the way.

I tend to concur, here, with what has been said previously:
The RPG genre has been, previously, defined by what the character could do, in terms of numbers. Eitehr you grind to better yourself, or you fight naturally whatever comes your way, and get better overtime, but one way or another, so far, console RPG has been about FIGHTING.
Let's take it one step further. What I DO like in tabletop RPGs is that they require you to INTERACT with other people, be they the Playing characters, your friends, or Non-Playing Characters, played by your Game-Master. But in some way, RolePlaying is all about making decisions and actions, and having to face their consequences. In this respect, it is pretty close to a management simulation.

And what is exciting in a console RPG is the story. Usually, it has a nice story that leads you gently by the hand, and asks you politely yet continuously to keep going ahead, not loosing time fooling around, and killing more and more ennemies, more and more dangerous. The more compeling the story, the less tedious the repeating of "go ahead" becomes. Moreover, I can just remember spending ages in FF8 trying to collect all the cards, or in M&M7 playing that card game, over and over... I don't know, it was fun...

Ah. And last but not least, what is ESSENTIAL, in my humble opinion, in a RPG is a believable world design. The secret of mana world, and sword of mana world were believable. They were also impossibly "cute" but still believable, in some very specific way. What youw ant, in a game in which you are going to immerse yourself, is, as has been put here and there in this forum, facing "suspension of disbelief". You want to believe, for a while, that things are normal, even if you are a 14-y-o 4f6i-tall kid fighting a monstrous cylcops armed with a club, and still manage to get out of it unscratched, thanks to your potions... If you must have fighting in your game, and unfortunately, apart from Fable or KotOR, very few games cnocentrate on the actual Role Playing, then make that fighting amusing, since you're likely to spend quite a while in the game's lifespan killing stuff...

Just as an aside, Fantasy Tropico2 would kick ass.

Thanks for all the replies so far. I've made a summary of all the points I could find about general "good things" that you like in RPGs. Unfortunately, it seems that the brainstorming got a bit derailed into a discussion on the feasibility of a managment sim/RPG hybrid, although it did bring up some good points.

I'd still like some more ideas on RPG elements that people enjoy, or that they think the general game playing audience enjoys.

Most people like 'crafting', even though personally I think it's overrated.

Oh, I never actually said anything about RPG elements in my previous post, did I? Sorry! [wink]

I suppose the first question is, "What is an RPG element?" Does it have to be something that is exclusive to RPGs, or present in all RPGs? I doubt that there are _any_ elements which meet either of those criteria. RPGs are known for story, yet there are also adventure games and RTS/FPS campaigns which have good stories, and some RPGs have very little story or an awful story. RPGs are almost unique in having the PC's interaction with the NPCs be a strategic puzzle, although there are some text adventure and mystery/detective games that do this too. RPGs are known for combat, but there are RTS, TBS, arcade, and platformer games which have as good or better combat, depending on your taste in combat.

I suppose complex equipment management might be unique to RPGs. While equipment management can be interesting, I think it's one of those elements which is as easy to do badly as it is to do well. You don't want to have equipment that has no meaning in terms of the story. You don't want to have the player need to buy the next higher level of all their equipment every half hour. Complicated systems are only fun if it is an interesting intuitive strategic puzzle to figure out how they work, and if you can then use this knowledge to accomplish dramatic and/or funny effects. It's also very important that there isn't one ideal configuration, but instead the player should encounter different situations and be challenged to respond to them by finding a new good configuration for each situation.

In a case where the player assembles or crafts their own equipment you want it to be intuitive, but not too easy, and you don't want the player to keep restarting the game because they used lots of materials only to find out that that combination resulted in crafting something stupid. In general I think the ideal crafting system would have only 8 or 9 building blocks and every combination of 2 or 3 of these would have a different, interesting, and logical result.

Eh, I dunno. Most RPG elements can be done well or poorly, and none of them are absolutely essential to a good game. If I had to pick my favorites it would go in this order:
1) Quality world
2) Character interaction
3) Reactive storytelling/world
4) Interesting mini-game activities and/or combat (I consider combat to be a type of mini-game, just like puzzles, arcade games, strategy games, and sim games.)
5) Quality story

I wouldn't buy a game which didn't have at least 3 of these. (This goes for large immersive games, I'm not talking about little arcade, puzzle, or solitaire games.)

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Original post by sunandshadow You don't want to have equipment that has no meaning in terms of the story. You don't want to have the player need to buy the next higher level of all their equipment every half hour.

I just want to add that this is an opinionated view :)

Some players relish in obtaining new equipment. I agree that it could be done badly, but not really in terms of how many weapons there are, and not really how they relate to the story. It's more about how unique each weapon is, and how they can become obsolete. My advice: no weapons become obsolete. Each weapon needs to have a special use, and the effectiveness of the weapon should be upgraded with your character's relative skill.

Let's look at Fallout. Lots of weapons. You could shuffle between ten weapons as you fought one battle. Weapons you start the game with can be effective until the very end of the game. For example, I once developed a character that could throw spears and cause just as much damage as a shotgun.

There are ways to get around having "more powerful" weapons. Limit their ammo. Make them become dull faster. Make them heavier. But try to keep the overall usefulness between all weapons very close. You also can't really use price or character requirements as a balance adjustment. It needs to be the weapon itself that is balanced.

Trapper Zoid, if I wasnt so busy making my game right now, Id definitely try to hop in on yours... or at least become your #1 fan. I totally agree with you that some semblance of simulation would be the perfect addition to an RPG. Im taking mine down a different route however. ;)

Bored and tired of the lack of varied and original quests in traditional MMORPGs, Ive decided to try to mix RPG and Sim genres to create a symbiotic effect between the crafters and the adventurers. I honestly feel they could create quests for each other.

Crafters need materials and goods transported, adventurers need good weapons, armor, and items. So while the fans of typical hack and slash questers are out collecting 1300 wolf pelts, fans of the crafting side can start a business in a sim-type style. But since there are some people that want to do both, my best bet is to try to make the game class-less so folks can switch roles whenever they wish.

I havent got all of the details down yet, since I have yet to make any of this work, but thats my goal. ;)

And to stay OT, I would say that Custom Character Creation, Lots of Items, Interactive Environments, and Strategic Battles would be my fave elements in an RPG.

Thanks for the replies, I've updated the list.

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Original post by sunandshadow I suppose the first question is, "What is an RPG element?" Does it have to be something that is exclusive to RPGs, or present in all RPGs?

An RPG element doesn't have to be exclusive to RPGs, or present in all RPGs, but something that you associate with the content of RPGs. Of course, this is purely subjective and will depend on your personal opinions of the genre, but that's precisely what I want to find out.

I'm happy for more suggestions! I'll keep updating the tally until the ideas dry up.