"I've been considering forcing all combat to be one on one. So multiple enemies would simply wait for a turn to spar with you. If I did this, there might be some way to lock the player's direction toward the opponent."
This is actually what they do in Kung-fu movies. It's affectionately known as "noodle time" because each guy waits his turn - eating noodles - until he gets to attack the hero.


I actually started a thread on this very subject awhile back and am still working on this.

There's a great mod for Unreal Tournament called Muralis that was one of the first mods to really do melee right in an FPS. Of course Epic decided that they would come out with their official version, but Muralis has some great ideas.

They use the keyboard for full effect with stuns, staggers, launchers (put your opponent into the air!), sweeps, disarms and other stuff.

Its worth DLing the mod just to read the ReadMe description of the gameplay.

I have the additional burden of wanting to mix wrestling and different styles (boxing, martial arts..etc) into the h-2-h system.

Im eagerly watching this thread...more discussion please!

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Original post by Jiia One problem is that my game is targeting control with an analog or WASD type keys. It's not easy (IMO) to do 2D fighting sequences with either. The other problem is that the player can move in all directions. Pressing forward in a 2D fight is fine considering you're just going to move closer to the enemy. But you'll notice that few moves use up. They knew it would be too easy to jump if it were used. In 3 dimensions, how do you know when the player is trying to do an attack sequence, or turn, or move around? What if your character is so responsive that he spins 35 degrees while you try to execute a fireball motion?

WASD keys I can see not working, but you mentioned Analog.. am I to assume that you're using a controller as an optional form of input? If so then why not just use the digital pad as well.. I must be misunderstanding that.

Also: "In 3 dimensions, how do you know when the player is trying to do an attack sequence, or turn, or move around?" The same could be said in 2D fighters, how do you know when you're jumping or just tapping the Up direction to issue a part of a combo.. I think it's all in the design, a small delay in the time it takes for the average player to reach from point A to B, where point A is the first part of a combo and point B is the second part (i.e. point A = F, point B = DF). If the time expires then the alternative "movement" function will ignite. The delay time should be extremely minute so that it is not evident to the user at all.

"What if your character is so responsive that he spins 35 degrees while you try to execute a fireball motion?" Again, something that also occurs in 2D, you'll notice that Ryu from Street Fighter will duck down, then come up when performing his Hadoken attack, which is D,DF,F+Punch. This can also be solved with that time delay thing I spoke of earlier.

How about lock-on?

Hold in R1 to focus on an enemy. While locked, the left stick becomes advance, retreat and sidestep. Then just use those simple motions and two or three different attack buttons to do special moves. Up, down, half-cirle right would be expressed as a tiny little footwork dance, but would turn your punch into a fireball or your kick into a swirling teleport.

This same system could facilitate different types of swings, like in Zelda or Kengo. A whole diverse 3D array of moves could be made possible.

I'm suprised you guys are endorsing circle rolls and dragon punches on a PC game. Those motions are really difficult with keyboard keys. I think? I mean I've always owned a USB device that lets me use my PS2 controller to play such games on the PC, so I've never tried to get used to WASD other than to just move around. But I'm almost certain I've seen others complain about such things being forced onto the keyboard in this forum. You can't exactly allow the player to choose if they want to use sequences or not.

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Original post by ferr "What if your character is so responsive that he spins 35 degrees while you try to execute a fireball motion?" Again, something that also occurs in 2D, you'll notice that Ryu from Street Fighter will duck down, then come up when performing his Hadoken attack, which is D,DF,F+Punch. This can also be solved with that time delay thing I spoke of earlier.

But Ryu doesn't suffer for ducking and taking a step forward as he tosses his plasma. If he were to turn to the left and run three feet, it would ruin the whole attack.

The timing trick works, as I've used something similar to allow pressing two buttons at once. But it also makes the controls feel less responsive. It's also difficult to time directional movement. I mean the time it takes to roll from down to forward is nothing compared to rolling back to forward to back. The easier (slower allowances) I want my moves to execute, which I want very easy, the less responsive everything will be.

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Original post by Iron Chef Carnage Hold in R1 to focus on an enemy. While locked, the left stick becomes advance, retreat and sidestep.

This would be the best controlled method. But is it possible to do locks without using buttons? If I remember correctly, I never used the lock on feature of Zelda unless I couldn't see correctly, or was shooting spiders with a bow, or fighting some bosses.

What about a combination of both of your guys' ideas? What if attacking someone starts a lock-on, then you have to hold a certain direction (like away from the enemy) for a few seconds to break free of it? Ermm, though that would make it nearly impossible to back up while staying in the fight.

The button lock might be my only choice. Or maybe a quick press of the "combat mode" button to break free of lock-ons, while finding ways to make their engagement automatic.

Thanks for the ideas so far.

[Edited by - Jiia on August 1, 2005 10:36:03 PM]

play Mount & blade.

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Original post by A_Borellus play Mount & blade.

It's quite a bit different from my own. It's combat is really fun, but it's also pretty limited. From what I could tell, there were only about three or four attacks.

The main difference is the view. Mine is from an overhead perspective, like Diablo, not shoulder or first person. That means the same controls that move you also rotate you. It makes a huge difference in this situation. It also makes pressing directions relative to your character with a keyboard very tricky. For example, if you're facing diaganol up-right relative to the screen, LEFT would be (with WASD) A+W. It's not bad, but it's not as nice as analog, and not as nice as keys with the camera directly behind you.

"It's also difficult to time directional movement. I mean the time it takes to roll from down to forward is nothing compared to rolling back to forward to back."

Well, you have to keep in mind that when you are "rolling back to forward to back" you are setting off a combo, BUT there is more within that initialization than the way you describe it so bluntly. That combo would read out as F,DF,D,DB,B,DB,D,DF,F,DF,D,DB,B. Now let's say the time we have determined the average player will get from F to DF is 10ms, when the player first presses F it waits for the next input, if the 10ms time expires without new input then the movement function occurs. If DF is input within the allotted time, then another timer starts up doing the same thing as before. With this in mind we should conclude that the time it takes to "roll from down to forward" and "rolling back to forward to back" is actually irrelevant. It's not about 'how fast can the player execute Foward, DownForward, Down and how fast can a player execute Clockwise, Clockwise, QuarterCounterClockwise Down' but how fast the player can get from input X to input X+1.

That's a pretty good solution. I guess it might be possible to add in simple rolls like the quarter circle. I still say a dragon punch style motion is really difficult with an analog stick :)

I think your delay is a bit fast, though. I don't think I can even blink my eyes in 10 milliseconds. My old 2D fighter used a delay of 150ms, and it was pretty comfortable. The time limit I used to allow pressing down two buttons simultaniously was even 50ms (50 was allowed between the buttons going down).

Anyway, thanks for pushing that. It gives me more hope to add more than a few attacks to each fighting state.

Yeah, what's the deal about the analog? Are you using a controller for this?

Using a controller for what? An analog fits the game the best. Imagine being able to play Diablo with one instead of point and clicking. That would be very similar to the feel of my game. Well, if Diablo wasn't so stiff and tile based, and if characters could move at infinite ranges of speeds, and it was 3D.