@Gardon: I agree with aaron, don't even worry about graphics yet. At least, not until you can't stand it anymore :)

@Jiia:

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Your game world ends up being limited to work with the representation.

Limitation can breed creativity like crazy. The purpose of the project is not to make the best or even easiest game possible, it's to gain experience.

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I would be impressed to see a 2D game engine written by someone just starting, which could be plugged into a 3D API.

That's my point - it takes a lot of knowledge to create a system like that. And that knowlege is more valuable than the knowlege of how to get a pre-canned solution up and running.

And if your entire game engine would be affected by the 2d nature of the world, then you're probably doing something wrong.

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But no-frills 3D game dev time will blow the zippers right off of non-frilly 2D dev time.

I'm assuming that you're suggesting the use of one or more pre-existing engines and libraries in order to achieve this ease of development with 3d content. It would be helpful to me (and others it seems) if you could give more concrete examples of how 3d is so easy, and ways in which you see 2d as more limiting.

If you feel up for it, I'd like you to try and convince me that doing it your way is more valuable experience for a new programmer. Maybe we should take it to a different thread?

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original quote by Gardon It was horribly jerky, and he wouldn't walk in one direction (I guess the isometricism keeps him from doing that).

That sounds like it wasn't compatible with your system. It runs super-smooth on my computer and I've never had a problem with my character not walking in a direction that wasn't obviously blocked by a wall or something.

2D is horrendously easy if you just stay away from DirectDraw and SDL and use D3D or OpenGL. Start with 2D because if you do it the simple way, you will also be learning to use a 3D rendering API. You can use your 3D models, as well, if you want to, because the API is designed to render them. Just keep the perspective orthogonal. Then, when you make new 3D models, leave the back side blank if you plan to use it in a 2D game. Or, you can make bitmaps and stick them on quads, which is even simpler. To be honest, 2D done this way is not a whole lot simpler than 3D minus shaders and lighting, but it is very easy and bitmaped images are easier to produce than 3D models.

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Original post by JoshM Quote: I would be impressed to see a 2D game engine written by someone just starting, which could be plugged into a 3D API. That's my point - it takes a lot of knowledge to create a system like that. And that knowlege is more valuable than the knowlege of how to get a pre-canned solution up and running.

Then you're totally missing the point. I said it was easier to work with 3D. I didn't say the pay off was better. Not that I agree with what you're suggesting. Most of the knowledge needed is going to change per view persepective. Your side view won't work with your new top-down view. Your top-down designs are most likely not going to fit into an isometric situation. All of the hacks required to make the game world fit into the requested scale really weigh on a newbie developer. It's not wasted (is any knowledge useless?), but it's certainly not the most important to be focusing on.

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And if your entire game engine would be affected by the 2d nature of the world, then you're probably doing something wrong.

Umm, we're just starting, remember? However, if even you can write a game that doesn't have any 2D specific code other than the rendering system, then you've just written a 3D game.

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Quote: But no-frills 3D game dev time will blow the zippers right off of non-frilly 2D dev time. I'm assuming that you're suggesting the use of one or more pre-existing engines and libraries in order to achieve this ease of development with 3d content.

Yes. DirectX or OpenGL. I'm not sure what pre-existing libraries might do that is not already easy. Physics, skinned meshes maybe. I actually ported my 2D physics engine over to my current project. And skin meshes were one of the first 3D systems I learned to use when I started.

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It would be helpful to me (and others it seems) if you could give more concrete examples of how 3d is so easy, and ways in which you see 2d as more limiting.

I'm not saying 2D is limited as far as what you can do with it. Wouldn't it be less work to explain why something is difficult than it would be to explain why it's easy? Why not you help me understand why 3D is more challenging? It's modeled after our real wordly existence.

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If you feel up for it, I'd like you to try and convince me that doing it your way is more valuable experience for a new programmer. Maybe we should take it to a different thread?

I'm not coming up with my own way, I'm shooting down an existing idea. I've worked far longer in 2D development than 3D. As a programmer, designer, modeler, animator, and sprite artist, I can't tell you that just the programmer's job is easier. But I can speak for the whole team.

Jiia, do you mind me asking how old you are, and what your experience in programming has been?

I'm just collecting ideas and stuff.

Also, if possible, do you have any sample games to show me. I'm really trying to get into game programming, and the more examples I have the better.

Thanks,

Jason

I'm 25 years old. I've only been developing games since I was 19, but I also haven't gotten much sun since then. I've been working in 2D from 19 to 24, heh. I don't have much on the web because of lack of space, but you can see some snaps of my three most invisioned 2D games here, here, and here.

I haven't updated my web site for a really long time, so I don't have snaps up of my current project, other than terrain snaps, a few houses I designed and modeled, and a few character models. The game is fully functional to the point where only combat remains of the engine itself.

The last 2 links don't work for me right now, but the first one looks awesome!

How did you start? Did you start in college, or did you buy books and stuff on your spare time?

My problem is debugging. Like right now, (I'm totally new to game development itself, which makes even 2d hard) I'm trying to make my character be able to walk, swing, and pause (he goes into a moving fighting stance) in every direction (north, northeast, east, etc.).

So far, I've gotten him to do those things facing east. However, I'm trying to implement how he can do it in the other directions too, but I can't figure out why my code isn't working.

He can change directions only if I push 2 buttons at the same time, in the opposite direction (for example, to move him to the right, I have to hold down the left and right arrow keys, then release the left key, and visa versa for the left direction).

I'm so frustrated, and I feel bad for asking the same guy for help (he will remain nameless) because he's been a great help all along, and I feel bad for continuously asking him questions...

And forum talking usually takes a while...

Are there any good 2d development books out there?





Also, those graphics on your 2d game totally kicked ass. Did you have a tile editor (is your game even tilebased?), or did you draw them as bitmaps, or freehand?

How did you do it?

Thanks,

Gardon

David Ray (Interplay, Blizzard) was my programming sensei until I got decent enough to leave the poor guy alone. I think I learned from him the first three years. I've learned the rest, including everything 3D related, on my own, with a few books and some GameDev help. Believe it or not, I learned most of what I know about 3D from the DirectX SDK. I've spent two years in college, but not much computer-science related as of yet. How did I start? I found a free open source platformer somewhere that a starting programmer wrote. I started pulling it apart, and tried to figure out how it worked. Around six months into my first attempt at a game, an RPG, I met my Sensei and began my training. Dude, I still have that first RPG source code. It's the most horrific thing you can imagine. There was actually literally a file named mess.c.

I'm not sure what books to recommend. I always buy very specific books, but a better choice for someone starting would be an all-in-one type setup. I'm sure someone will know a few titles, though.

Oh, and the graphics in that game are freehanded. Or at least most of them. Some are just textures from photos.

After a C class in school and some dos-games, I downloaded a "free" 3d engine and with some tutorials I got started pretty quick. After about 3 years I belive I am now ready to make me an engine of my own. I (only) have to complete my current game, the code get's rather messy after 3 years(there are two reasons, building the game on my first code(ewww) and doing it in non OOP and unstructured (some parts are OO and structured but most of it isn't)).

Point is, selecting an existing engine can IMHO combine the best of two worlds. Loading a 3d-model/world should be (a few) simple calls(Model m("model.mdl");). Sure camera movement can be tricky, but doesn't have to. The bonus with selecting a pre-made engine is that you won't get into rendering that much. It should only be some funcgtion calls (engine.beginFrame(); engine.renderWorld(world); engine.endFrame(); )

thanks everyone,

Jason

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Original post by staaf Quote: Original post by Gardon However, now, like 6 years later... More like 9 years. [smile] Diablo came out in 1996 as far as I recall, and Diablo II in 2000.

Actually the original diablo came out in January 1997. It was originally scheduled to ship on 11/30/96 but missed that date and the christmas shopping season.

Gamespot incorrectly shows the launch date as 11/30/96, but if you google it, there's plenty of articles that point to the Jan, 97 date. I should know because i agonized over it not shipping intime for christmas. :( I bought my copy first day it was available in the US. Long live the b.net!

linky

So let's call it 8 years and 6 months.