Quote: Original post by Nathan Baum
Wavinator isn't looking for an explanation that the Gods give to humans. He's looking for an explanation that the game gives to the player. The player, after all, is controlling a character that is far more than human.

It's still a valid point. How much explaining do gods really need?
How many games explain where their gods came from? Or even where the player's species come from, for that matter? Where the world came from?

You might argue that their presence doesn't really require much explaining. They're just there.

(Of course, some of it does need explaining, but it's still worth considering, why exactly do you need a rationale for the gods? What exactly needs explaining, and what doesn't?)

How about this, the Gods are beings of great power and knowledge so great that they have reached the end of their evolution. They know all they can comprehend and have all the power that they can imagine. However they still have questions and there is much they do not understand. So they decided create beings that had the potential surpass them they called it project Avatar. In order for project Avatar to succeed conflict was needed and a threat that the Gods themselves could not stop needed to be overcome. So they reached out into the darkness into the depths of the great unkown beyond all that they could understand and drew forth the Seiger. And so while the Seiger slowly devoured all that was the Gods hid themselves within the very essence of life guiding humanities evolution and development as each saw fit in order someday give birth to a being that would surpass the very gods themselves.

Quote: Original post by Spoonbender

Quote: Original post by Nathan Baum
Wavinator isn't looking for an explanation that the Gods give to humans. He's looking for an explanation that the game gives to the player. The player, after all, is controlling a character that is far more than human.

It's still a valid point. How much explaining do gods really need?
How many games explain where their gods came from? Or even where the player's species come from, for that matter? Where the world came from?

You might argue that their presence doesn't really require much explaining. They're just there.

(Of course, some of it does need explaining, but it's still worth considering, why exactly do you need a rationale for the gods? What exactly needs explaining, and what doesn't?)

Edward's point didn't appear to be that the Gods didn't need much explaining. He appeared to be saying that the Gods didn't need any explaining. That's the view I can't agree with. If the Gods were just "in the background", then it would be okay. But it appears that the Gods are the driving force behind the character. The character is what he is and does what he does because of the Gods. If there's no consistent explanation of what the Gods want, and how they intend to get it, then the player won't know what to expect from the game from one second to the next. Players don't generally like games which don't make sense. Particularly not the kind of players who would be attracted to Wavinator's project.

Quote: Original post by TechnoGoth
How about this, the Gods are beings of great power and knowledge so great that they have reached the end of their evolution. They know all they can comprehend and have all the power that they can imagine. However they still have questions and there is much they do not understand. So they decided create beings that had the potential surpass them they called it project Avatar. In order for project Avatar to succeed conflict was needed and a threat that the Gods themselves could not stop needed to be overcome. So they reached out into the darkness into the depths of the great unkown beyond all that they could understand and drew forth the Seiger. And so while the Seiger slowly devoured all that was the Gods hid themselves within the very essence of life guiding humanities evolution and development as each saw fit in order someday give birth to a being that would surpass the very gods themselves.

Very anime.

I think this works better if only one or a few Gods called the Seiger into being. I don't see all the Gods agreeing to a plan which will likely see their destruction.

Additionally, a species only stops evolving if there is no selection pressure. If the Gods want to become greater than they are, they need to call the Seiger into being, and then allow nature to take its course. When they start getting eaten, evolution would start up again. I don't see any good reason for them to mold humanity into Seiger-destroyers in your scenario. They'd want to mold themselves into Seiger-destroyers.

One possible strategy might be to say that the avatars are actually primitive God/human hybrids. Another is to say that humanity is being used not to destroy the Seiger, but just to delay them.

Quote: Original post by Nathan Baum
I think this works better if only one or a few Gods called the Seiger into being. I don't see all the Gods agreeing to a plan which will likely see their destruction.

Why not? They've reached the point where they can go no further they are at the end of their existance. All that remains is for them to risk everything in attempt to create beings who can go where they can not.

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Additionally, a species only stops evolving if there is no selection pressure. If the Gods want to become greater than they are, they need to call the Seiger into being, and then allow nature to take its course. When they start getting eaten, evolution would start up again. I don't see any good reason for them to mold humanity into Seiger-destroyers in your scenario. They'd want to mold themselves into Seiger-destroyers.

The Gods don't want to become greater then they are. They are all that they can ever be. They have reached the end of their existance. They need the Seiger which are creatures that they can not overcome in order to create beings that can surpass themselves. Their goal isn't to destroy the Seiger it is to create beings able to do what they can not and learn what they can never understand. The Seiger are the catalyst to achive this.

Quote: Original post by TechnoGoth
They've reached the point where they can go no further. They are at the end of their existance.

Why can they go no further? That doesn't make sense. If they're incapable of change, then they're either dead, or have thought all thoughts that they are capable of thinking. Either way, they won't be creating any superbeings.

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All that remains is for them to risk everything in attempt to create beings who can go where they can not.

Why?

If they're at the end of their existance, why should they care about creating other beings who aren't?

And if they're at the end of their existance, know everything they can comprehend, can do everything they can concieve of doing, how come they have questions?

And if they haven't previosuly created a race of beings who surpass them, then they obviously aren't at the end of their existance, and don't know everything, and haven't done everything. Which means that they are obviously capable of learning and doing new things. Which means they have not gone as far as they can go, that they are not at the end of their evolution, and are certainly not at the end of their existance.

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The Gods don't want to become greater then they are.

Why not? I cannot believe a race of beings who have developed their capabilities to the very peak of physical possibility would then decide to give up on progress. It would take great determination to become the foremost power in the Universe, and we are to suppose that they just pack it all in? I think not.

Finally, your image of the Gods united in common purpose is in stark contrast to Wavinators requirements: rebellion/dissent among the Gods. If the Gods have sunk into abject stagnancy, then there would be no rebellion or dissent. If there are Gods who do not agree with each other, then the Gods are capable of change and have not reached the end of their existance. They could, out of shear boredom, reach into their minds, change their opinion about a matter, and go a-debating.

Quote: Original post by Nathan Baum
Why can they go no further? That doesn't make sense. If they're incapable of change, then they're either dead, or have thought all thoughts that they are capable of thinking. Either way, they won't be creating any superbeings.

What doesn't make sense? All things come to an end. Writers eventually run out of things to write about, explorers have explored every where they can explore. They have amassed so much power and knowledge that they can no longer see any way to improve themselves. The only change is variation, not originality; because they can not think of anything original. If you heard every piece of music in the universe since it began could you still write an original song? Or has your knowledge of music become so great that you are no longer capable of creating something original only variations on what you know?

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Why?

If they're at the end of their existance, why should they care about creating other beings who aren't?

And if they're at the end of their existance, know everything they can comprehend, can do everything they can concieve of doing, how come they have questions?

And if they haven't previosuly created a race of beings who surpass them, then they obviously aren't at the end of their existance, and don't know everything, and haven't done everything. Which means that they are obviously capable of learning and doing new things. Which means they have not gone as far as they can go, that they are not at the end of their evolution, and are certainly not at the end of their existance.

There is an old question that says can God create a rock so heavy that even God can not lift it? Or can God create a puzzle so complex that even God can not solve it. Like wise The Gods have come to wonder if it is possible to create something greater then themselves. Its part suicide, part evolution but it is one of the great questions they have left, is it possible for the creation to surpass the creator? They have never attempted this because they don’t know if it is possible and if it is possible they don’t know what the outcome would be.

Consider a room. You are inside the room and have learned all there is to know within that room and can do anything there is to do in that room, however you have never been outside the room and can not leave the room, as such can not conceive of anything outside that room. There would eventually come a point when the only mystery left for you to solve is to wonder if you can create something able leave the room.

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Why not? I cannot believe a race of beings who have developed their capabilities to the very peak of physical possibility would then decide to give up on progress. It would take great determination to become the foremost power in the Universe, and we are to suppose that they just pack it all in? I think not.

Where do you go when you’re on top? If you could do anything you can imagine what would do after you’ve done it all?

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Finally, your image of the Gods united in common purpose is in stark contrast to Wavinators requirements: rebellion/dissent among the Gods. If the Gods have sunk into abject stagnancy, then there would be no rebellion or dissent. If there are Gods who do not agree with each other, then the Gods are capable of change and have not reached the end of their existance. They could, out of shear boredom, reach into their minds, change their opinion about a matter, and go a-debating.

They have disagreements and differences of opinions, they could each have a different idea of what it means for a being to be able to surpass them. That doesn’t mean they can improve themselves anymore then they all ready have though. Two electrons could debate endless about the sub atomic universe but that doesn't mean they can every becomes more then just electrons.

Quote: Original post by Nathan Baum
Wavinator isn't looking for an explanation that the Gods give to humans. He's looking for an explanation that the game gives to the player. The player, after all, is controlling a character that is far more than human.

Wavinator's "Gods" are not all-powerful and inscrutable. If they were, they wouldn't need to hide anywhere. They'd just wave their hands and the universe would be the way they wanted.

So although the Gods might not want the humans in the game to know what they're up to, they'd be able to understand it if they were told. And that means that Wavinator needs to know exactly what the Gods are up to, so that he can ensure that the game presents a consistent story.

I'll be very sure to add a sarcasm flag next time.

Thanks for the replies! I'm still mulling all of this over.

The gods need explanation because the player will face them. The game is about shaping human destiny over lifetimes. One subplot I want to have is that we've all been constructed, that we're an artificially seeded race and that the gods have had a hand in manipulating our history since the beginning of time. Some of the gods feel that since they've made us, they have every right to sacrfice and manipulate us.

The player is going to be used to dying and reviving, but for the final plot, to close the game, you have to face down the gods and choose either to supplant them, or give up all your power defeating them. If you replace them, then humanity is never really free, and if you sacrifice your power, you play out one final game segment where you're mortal, the galaxy's free, and unlike in all the rest of the game, you finally die for real.




The Siegers and the gods need to be closely tied together. Synthesizing some of the replies, what about beings who have been running for eons? They've survived the collapse of more universes than they can remember. They're always being chased by a power that can destroy them. Although the gods consider themselves enlightened, what most refuse to face is that the power is their own dark nature, the god's opposite half.

Each time the gods escape into a new universe, they have no way of manipulating matter, and are trapped. Being immortal, they know they'll eventually die when the universe dies, if their own darkness doesn't find and devour them first.

So they hijack a species and control them, reasoning that being guided by "gods" is better than stumbling around as savages. They manipulate the technology development of the world, its religions, and even the inspiration and thoughts of entire populations. When they shape the species (which takes billions of years), they abandon them and jump into a new, young universe.

The conflict comes from the past catching up with them-- sort of poetic justice. I'm thinking that as they've been exploiting species and passing themselves off as "gods," the "ghosts" of the past species they've used and thrown away are getting dragged along with them.

So now the gods are being chased by what they think is the antithesis of life, a force that's energetically "joined at the hip" with them. In order to get all of the gods to face this, one god began tipped the balance of power, and created an avatar. Now the gods have split into factions, and all have put energy into avatars.

... eh, don't know if that works...

Have you ever seen the Warhammer 40k lore? The stuff to do with the 'warp' and the 'eye of terror' where all the force of chaos (demons) live, could be adapted to your story.

What if the things hunting the God's down are something more tangeble? Their 'dark-sides' could be Demon-opposites. One cannot survive without the other but their 'dark-twins' always want the opposite to them. Caught in the middle are humans.

Anyway, check out the 40k stuff and see if it helps you any.