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Original post by Kazgoroth ..and it's very annoying when a viable options is taken away from me as a player to preserve the setting or storyline

Ahhh damn, that reminds me of Deus Ex 1. There's this stage where you have to confront this other mech character (anyone play this?). I got all pumped up and was prepared to fight to the death, only to realize the game wouldn't let me win. The bastard was invincible. Because I was meant to die and be taken to a holding cell. That really irked me. I beat on that guy for hours for no reason. There's no way he could have taken me down if the designers didn't make my death absolute. I swear I played that part of the game 50 times trying to find a way to kill him that the designers may have missed.

Haha, sorry to vent [smile]

[Edited by - Jiia on June 8, 2005 4:42:11 PM]

I remember that part in Deus Ex 1, that really did piss me off. I mean, why let me get that far if your just going to Force me to take the route you intended in the beginning anyway? Eh..

I think writing can be an important part of gameplay, i like exploring and adventuring around, and when you get into free-roaming or open ended gameplay its better for a writer to not write a novel in the conventional sense but more to create the setting and backdrop for the gameworld and experiences to portray the story through the environment. Like creating a room with surgical equipment and other subtle clues that the player can examine to find out what happened, what may happen, and other such things. By exploring further in the environment the player would start to build a picture in his mind of the events and story of his surroundings, which may encourage him to keep digging to find other pieces which may change his current views of the overall plot/story.

A few games have done that, like Silent Hill, Parasite Eve 2, and a little bit here and there in many other games, though i wish they would do it more. ;D

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I mean, gameplay is number 1. At least in my opinion. However, all those extra details in the world is what makes the game feel less like a game.

To true. Without gameplay there is no game. If you wanna tell a story, then write a book! Heck you could even add that "not so great gameplay" by forceing readers to complete silly cross word puzzles before turning each page!

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We play video games to explore another realm of exsistance where we're demon hunters, dragon slayers, and rebel outcasts.

True...but notice something here folks - especialy all you whom think story is most important. The player character is almost always identified only by occupation...that doesn't happen in real stories, in stories with substance, stories with depth.

Hollywood used to make what were known as "B" movies. Low budget exploitive films mant to make a quick buck or two. Now thanks to the likes of Jerry Bruckhiemer...they make big budget highly polished "B" flicks...yeah the dialog is snappy, the effects and action scenes are impressive, they even have real actors in them...but in the end its still just a medicore "B" movie story, polished no doubt, but still just a pulp level turd....now maybe you love films like ConAir and the Rock...but don't even fool yourself into thinking those were great stories, enjoyable popcorn flicks - yes, but not real worthwhile stories to model your own upon.

Even the best written video game stories hardly rise to that "B" movie level (polished turds or the regular old garden variety)...You wanna make money, then keep doing things the way they are. But if you wanna put the story right out front then really folks invest in some real stories, ones that make people examine thier own lives, ones that make people think, ones that they can relate to on a much deeper level...ones that arn't limited by character occupation. Stories that have fleshed out characters with issues to resolve, insecurities, hang-ups and personalities (which is far, FAR more then a backstory!). Then give the characters emotional and philisophical arcs that develop and resolve themselves naturaly (rather then forced through story plotting). Otherwise all even the best writers can do for you is polish a turd.

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Original post by MSW Even the best written video game stories hardly rise to that "B" movie level (polished turds or the regular old garden variety)...

I have to argue with you there. I've played Japanese titles that make top-notch American movie plots look like sunday morning cartoons. Even the old Japanese console titles like Lufia (fall in love, girlfriend is slayed to death near the very end), Final Fantasy (two many scenarios to explain), and Chrono Trigger (all sorts of warped time problems) had great stories. I can't say that about many movies. Most are incredibly predictable. It doesn't really matter how much money they pour into them. It's becoming too easy to guess what directors and writers are thinking. There are exceptions (Fight Club, Donnie Darko), but the number is small. I find game stories much more difficult to predict than movies. Especially indie stories.

I tell you what, I watched the cutscenes in Resident Evil 4, because they were a fun part of the gameplay. I paid attention to the story, becuase they explained it to me while I was dodging knives. That was cool.

After some thinking & lots of playing I've come to the personal conclusion that actual story events, twists etc. are fairly unimportant, as long as they make possible an interesting and cohesive sequence of gameplay events it's OK (and any huge twists lose most of their significance the second time around anyway.)

But what's still important is the vision, care & attention to detail in building the game world. It's often a mark of amateur writing when the authors think drowning you in plot twists is good, while the "world" mostly lacks believability & detail. Chaser or Chrome for example. On the opposite end of the scale there's something like Morrowind (of course, totally different genre, but still) where your part in the story is as simple & cliched as it gets, and there are no grand twisty moments, but the detail & internal consistency of the world is tremendous, and as a consequence, when you're through the main quest you truly feel like you've achieved something & changed the world.

Another example: Max Payne I & II. I feel part II is much superior as a stand-alone story: tighter, twistier, more emotional. But still part I is IMO better as a game story, giving you a more "unified" journey towards the unavoidable destination. Actual worldbuilding is pretty much equal in both I'd say.

[Edited by - AgentC on June 9, 2005 6:26:34 PM]

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Original post by scumble Have any of you played Anachronox at all? That is a good example of a game with excellent writing, and it's a shame it didn't do better - the reason is probably that it was somewhat behind in the graphical department by the time of its release.

Anachronox is one of those gems that I've been tinkering away on for about 6 months now (many, many things to explore in that game)... I agree on the excellent writing, and it really is a shame that the game itself wasn't a "commercial success" (as market-speak would say it). I don't think the graphics were so much the problem, but rather Ion Storm and Eidos' tremendous focus on Daikatana that engulfed and stifled Anachronox's release. (FWIW, Planet Anachronox is a great fansite.)

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Original post by Garmichael ...all those extra details in the world is what makes the game feel less like a game. We play video games to explore another realm of exsistance...The player may or may not conciously notice the details in the level design...However...all those things help fool the players brain into beleiving your game's world really does exsist somewhere.

In general, I agree with this. I recently examined the PsychoToxic demo (NuClearVision Entertainment). The level design was very subpar and lacked any sort of detail to define the game's identity. After struggling with generic soundbytes, erratic physics, invisbile barriers, and catching myself constantly saying, "gee, that just doesn't seem right", I gave up completely on the story. (I confess I wasn't so much interested in the game itself as I was on analyzing the Trinigy 3-D engine.)

Now, if the level detail and general "if I do this action, then I expect this response" feel is present, it is at that point that I can lose myself in a game and begin to engage and absorb the story.

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Original post by Jiia ...that reminds me of Deus Ex 1...this stage where you have to confront this other mech character...the game wouldn't let me win...Because I was meant to die and be taken to a holding cell.

Agreed - I suppose it's one of those drawbacks to writing for interactivity; at some point, the player needs to be put on a leash and "pulled" in certain directions for story advancement (or so writers may feel).

In my opinion, Deus Ex had an enormous amount of story data that wasn't necessary to complete the game, but existed for those who wanted to explore and find it. The books you didn't have to read, the NPCs you didn't have to engage, the myriad email accounts you didn't have to access and read - but if the player chose to do these "extracurricular" things, many interesting elements were revealed about characters, entities, etc... One may say, "oh, those are just easter eggs", but I strongly disagree.

Any opinions?


Much thanks for reading,

-Razorguts

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Original post by Razorguts In my opinion, Deus Ex had an enormous amount of story data that wasn't necessary to complete the game, but existed for those who wanted to explore and find it. The books you didn't have to read, the NPCs you didn't have to engage, the myriad email accounts you didn't have to access and read - but if the player chose to do these "extracurricular" things, many interesting elements were revealed about characters, entities, etc... One may say, "oh, those are just easter eggs", but I strongly disagree.

Yes! All that "extra" data may seem like a lot of extra work, but I think it's stuff that the developers should know anyway if going for a detailed & believable world, and may already exist in some form in their "bible".

When all things & places have a well defined purpose, more design & gameplay possibilities may become apparent, even easily & obviously. For example in DX1 they could instead of saying "OK, let's have this sewer level with enemies and cool stuff inside" say "OK, there is this water processing station taken over by MJ12, accessible via the sewers. They're going to use it for insertion of the virus, so what do they need? A chemist? Hmm, that could make for a sidequest..."