Original post by Anonymous Poster Multi-stage 'quests' with variants at each stage to scramble them even more. It would also help to have a small team continually adding addition quest scenarios and variants. Hierarchies of quest results lead to opening additional quests.
Note - these scripts would be shared across ALL servers, so the manpower and $$$ put into producing them would have a multiplied effect (cost efficiency).
I don't see anything incredibly new there... and the last point is moot because it already applies to pretty much every game on the market.
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These quests should move some game macro plot forward (via player competition and cooperation) doing the many small quests lead to some perceived change in world state.
This is still pretty vague and ignores what I was getting at - what are you going to allow to change in the world, that is both important enough to be worthwhile, yet not so significant that it will negatively impact on many players? I don't think it can be easily summed up as 'moving the plot forward' because the whole definition of plot is a poor match for persistent online games anyway. In narrative terms it suggests a common start, middle, and end, and follows the events relating to several key characters. This doesn't work well with games where players start at different times, where all players want to be a hero (yet no story can have thousands of heroes by definition), and where players want to be treated fairly and not denied content available to others.
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I remember playing UO for 5 years and seeing the near static state of the game map and the sheer boredome of players -- then even their lame macro-plot events would cause half the players to show up looking for something new to see.
Let's be fair here: not only is Ultima Online is 8 year old technology, but it was the first game of its kind and did not have the benefit of hindsight when it was developed. We wouldn't debate the quality of current first person shooters with reference to Quake 1 or discuss RPGs by highlighting problems with Ultima 8.
I'm not ready to call Wish the best thing since sliced bread, but it is unfortunate that the project was cancelled. If nothing else it could have moved the genre forward.
I agree. I was totally bummed out when the project got cancelled (especially since I was lined up to participate in the next stage of beta testing). The game was a little lackluster on the graphical side, but it had some great ideas.
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what MMORPG's tend to lack is true immersion (E.g. not half assed "You are in a huge world! FEEL IMMERSED!")
I think that huge worlds are neccesary to progress the genre. Admittedly, the way large worlds are being implemented now is pretty pointless. I liken it to being dropped off in a playground where the swings are 3 miles away from the slide; the extra space is just getting in the way of me having fun. But there is potential.
For example, what I'd like to see is a completely permeable MMO world to put that space to use. One where you can build cities, excavate or raise ground, plat gardens or clear cut forests; anything you'd be able to do in real life. The inability to interact with the environment on that level is the real hurdle preventing me from being immersed in an MMORPG.
Until I can cut down a tree and use it to build a house then I just see it as a bark texture on a pile of polygons.
Original post by Anonymous Poster Maybe nothing new, except how many games actually use a sophisticated system as I described ??? How many have customizd quest 'dungeons' temporarily appear somewhere on the map (spawned for the mini-quest') and then when its over disappear??
Anarchy Online has random dungeons, spawned as necessary.
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How many have NPCs that are placed just for a specific quest and then walk into the sunset afterward??
How is that intrinsically more interesting? So, every quest, instead of coming from the same NPC over and over, comes from a random NPC who you never see again. Do you really think this will impress people, or reduce the grind?
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Most MMORG are quite static and facilitate 'harvestingf' of monsters and camping. Nearly uniques quests would eliminate such stupid game play.
Except they wouldn't be unique, they'd be permutations of the same sort of thing, which would be quickly analysed by players. Sure, the name, object, reward, and location would differ. You gain a tiny amount of variety and you lose some of the shared experience that standard quests offer.
Original post by Anonymous Poster It doesnt mean you cant have an overall plot -- developement of the worldstate, a storyline to give the players some sense of 'WORLD' instaed of just a bunch of locations to do things and advance the character/gain more stuff.
Most MMORPGs do have exactly that. It just tends to get disregarded because nobody cares.
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Think of cartoons. They have small plot lines spanning a few weeks, but have running jokes and conventions that may go on for the entire lifetime of the cxartoon. People have no problem 'start(ing) at different times' and soon figure them out.
You're stretching the analogy too far. Cartoons (or soap operas, or any other episodic but ongoing tv show) can add and remove characters as necessary for the progress of the story. The characters are tools to be manipulated to serve the plot. In a game, the characters come first as they are the paying customers. How do you envisage forming a plot under these constraints?
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Funny, the story of WW2 is one of thousands of heroes.
Only for very vague and useless definitions of 'story' and 'hero'. When I said that players want to be heroes, I mean that they want to do interesting things that make them feel important. Being conscripted, put on a landing craft, and then machine-gunned to death within 15 seconds of landing on a beach is neither heroic or particularly interesting in gaming terms.
Or if you had to kill 1000 elites to advance past the Silent Cartographer in Halo
That would have been sweet!
Killing 1000 Elites (especially on legendary while fighting 3 or 4 at a time) would have been a huge ego boost. A huge sense of accomplishment. "Whoa! Look, there's the guy that slaughtered 1000 Elites! Just to enter some building!".
As long as the game is fun, I don't see a problem with redundant killing. But I agree that it probably shouldn't always be necessary to advance in the main quest.
Personally, my two largest gripes with MMO's is that they are toys more than games, and secondly that most are grand money making schemes that limit access to the general gaming audience because they require a monthly fee. I know Guild Wars doesn't require a monthly fee and there may be other MMORPG's out there as well that don't, but in general this is the case. The very nature of the economics of current MMO strategies dictates that only a small minority of hardcore players will play the game because if they are paying monthly to play then they're going to make sure that they're getting the most play time in as possible.
Other more casual players, or even other hardcore gamers who have lives, families, and full-time jobs can't justify subscribing to an MMO game when they may only play it 4-6 hours a week at most. I would like to try WOW but I'm not willing to pay a monthly fee for a game that I might only play 30-40 minutes a night. I will however be willing to play Guild Wars because I won't feel guilty if only feel like playing a couple hours of week.
If developers want to justify a monthly subscription fee by promising to update content I think that they should instead consider abandoning the monthly rate in favor of expansion pack installments that the player can pay for in more sparse increments. I know that if I enjoy playing a game enough that I'll be more than willing to buy the expansion pack. This has been the case for me with WarCraft Frozen Throne, StarCraft Brood War, Dungeon Siege, C&C Generals Zero Hour, and several other games.
As far as my statement that I consider MMO's to be toys more than games, this is related to the fact that MMO's lack a primary goal and resolution. I agree that completing goals in a persistant online world shouldn't limit other players abilities to participate in the game or prevent them from achieving their own objectives, but ultimately their needs to be a purpose to an MMO game.
One possible way of achieving this is through what I call gaming seasons. A gaming season can be 3 months, 6 months, a year, or just a couple of weeks depending on what direction the developers want to take their game. Basically a gaming season would consist of having a final goal for everyone to strive for that when completed will bring resolution to their playing experience for that season. Essentially a self-contained closed story that can be experienced from start to conclusion. While in some cases it may be interesting enough to allow a season to be replayed, this is not always necessarily how it has to be done. Each season can introduce a new story, goal, and final conclusion to that particular chapter in the online world's life.
I know that MMO's already have missions and quests, but ultimately these are frame stories that offer little closure concerning the outcome of the game world's fate. They certainly aren't purpose enough to play the game for their sake alone. A game should have a goal and in many cases requires victories/defeats or winners/losers. As was originally stated in this thread MMO's need purpose, and not just the experience factor.
Well spoken, engineeredvision. The lack of karma is what turns me away from the genre. MMORPGs are quest factories. There is no depth or soul to speak of.
Some games don't require soul, though. Sometimes it's very interesting to play the role of a worthless grunt. Military conflicts, for example. You have a chance to rise from grunt status to a leading warrior. You just have to stay alive as your team accomplishes goals. Where in most MMORPGs, everyone can and is expected to become leading warriors. They just have to kill enough rats. Dying usually just amounts to a safe trip to town. Seems like a waste of time to me.
Or if you had to kill 1000 elites to advance past the Silent Cartographer in Halo
That would have been sweet!
Killing 1000 Elites (especially on legendary while fighting 3 or 4 at a time) would have been a huge ego boost. A huge sense of accomplishment. "Whoa! Look, there's the guy that slaughtered 1000 Elites! Just to enter some building!".
As long as the game is fun, I don't see a problem with redundant killing. But I agree that it probably shouldn't always be necessary to advance in the main quest.
What buggers me with this is that once someone sees that someone else has done it, he will want the same for himself. And what was once a huge and impossible to undertake task will soon be a camping shoting range. You will find dozens of people sitting tranquilly in a line and shooting on those "elites" you are talking about, and killing them like rats in a barrel. There is no sense of accomplishment if all you have to do is wait long enough. There is no risk taken in waiting.
Let's change things a little. Let's say that instead of killing 1000 "elites" in a row or not, you have to kill only a dozen, but ALONE AND IN ONE GO. Now, THIS sounds more like a real trial. Something that only some VERY hard-boiled senior warriors could do. Something to REALLY brag about. It would be like the difference between running ten times 4.2 kilometers or running once 42 kilometers. Which one sounds more difficult to you? Which one sounds more heroic? And once again, there are tons of people who can say that they have run a Marathon once in their lives? they do? OK, let's make it a double. 84 kilometers in one go. Who's up now?
Actually, Halo was big on ammo. You would most likely have to resort to stealing the dead Elite's weapons and using them against them. Which would not be fun at all. The plasma rifle wasn't bad against them, but it definitely wasn't the best on Legendary. Now give me a needler or plasma pistol, a few plasma grenades, and put us on some some good cover terrain, and I could take on 10 at a time.
Halo is about the worst example I can imagine to compare to MMORPGs, though. It had tons of depth. The weapons, the characters. I would probably still laugh if I heard those little bastards scream about the cyborg monster coming. There were also lots of little secrets to the game that are hard to find. That is, until you jack the difficulty to max, and realize that every corridor is a like new mission. It pushes you to find tactics you didn't know existed. Things like the orange instant kill spot on Hunter's backs. Or the fact that the SMG is the most worthless gun ever made. How about the Warthog's side bumpers being more effective than it's gatlin gun? That it's much easier to fight hunters hand-to-hand than with ranged weapons. I completely finished the game on normal without knowing most of this. It wasn't until I reinstalled it way later and played on Legendary that it became one of my favorites. Actually, as far as shooting goes, it's still my favorite.
Err umm, yeah. I guess this doesn't have much to do with the purpose of MMORPG's. But it's a good example of how a game can be tons of fun without much purpose. My purpose on Legendary was staying alive for 10 more minutes.
Most of the MMO's I have played have dynamic content in one shape or form or it was added later.
Everquest for example. Probably one of the most altering dynamic events on a server involved waking the sleeper(A huge dragon in the 2nd expansion, out of like 10.) It would permanently remove gear from the game and generally piss alot of people off. On some servers they had pacts that prevented any guild from doing this because of this gear. Well once he was woke he was woke and that was all there was to it. They eventually shoved some of the gear back in lesser forms but it was a server changing event none the less.
I think most games don't have more of this type of content simply because it costs to much to make and maintain. The above script I don't believe was ever fixed but all that happened was he woke up wondered a few zones killing everyone in sight(I died like 8 times that night, nothing compared to the 30+ times some people did), then it would simply stop doing anything and need a GM to destroy it.
