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Original post by Madster about staying fun: if you dislike the strategy/story driven aspect of the meta-games, you can just stick in one epoch/worldstate and play there. With Wavinator's design you should be able to play there indefinitely, eschewing the bits you dislike completely. On the opposite side, you could stick to these meta-games only, without touching the more action-oriented portion of the game (if i got that idea right). So, you got the best of both worlds, and they're not mutually exclusive. yay!

This is 99.999% correct, with the sole exception that time still needs to flow in the real-time portion (for day and night cycles, or minor event changes like a VIP scheduled to arrive in an hour).

If the time boundaries are close enough, the two could overlap: If an invasion is 10 hours away, for instance, that still needs to happen after 10 real-time hours. Otherwise, you get the hollow NPC appeal-for-help-effect where they warn of imminent destruction that never arrives.

But if you play on a 1:1 time scale, it would take large scale events FOREVER to happen in real time. Wars would indeed take years to conclude, and colonizations decades.[smile]

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Original post by Kenneth Alexander I just think he may be biting off more than he can swallow, alone. This would entail a whole series, not just a book.

I think you may be thinking that I'm reaching for a lot more than I'm actually proposing. The best way to do this idea would be to have thousands upon thousands of vignettes, each with possibilities tailored to them.

I am NOT doing that. What makes more sense, even though it risks losing some of the flair of the highly individualized approach, is to cover a few dozen interesting situations, link them to routines which have requirements, and have text descriptors fill in blanks. So you'd get something like "The first <time period> of your tour on <location> pass <time passes descriptor>. You <environment mood descriptor> the <environment descriptor> <environment> that dominate this this place..." etc.

This might give you: "The first <three years> of your tour on <Alpha Centauri> pass <swiftly>. You learn to <tolerate> the <blasted, wind-swept> <plains and tundra> that dominate this place."

There would be variants, and you could generate context-based sentences that reflected the player's previous experiences. It wouldn't be literature, but it might be higly playable when given choices and resources.

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Original post by Kenneth Alexander The game you propose feels like it would be a deterministic, variable ending, story line type game, a simulation, or both. If you have too much fill content, people will notice, and not utilize it, skip it and meta over it.

Again, checking that we're on the same page, here's what might pass as a scenario:

You're an immigrant to a new colony. You come with nothing but basic piloting skills, but hope to become a freelancer who can make it big by being in on the expansion early. Because the colony is new, there's not a lot of infrastructure. The available jobs are scout, perimeter defense, and shuttle-pilot.

In-game, NPCs talk about establishing 5 new cities in the next 3 years. They also talk about strange disappearances noone knows the source of. Other than four massive alien derelicts orbiting a gas giant out-system, there's nothing strange about the system.

If you play real-time, you join up with a service. Because the system is barren, you'll have the option of compressing scouting, patroling, or shuttling for some agency until you build up enough resources for your own ship. If you do so, interrupts will occur along the way, relating to the mystery of disappearances, the derelicts or other situations. All will have the option of dropping back into the normal game to handle things directly (similar to a mission spawn, btw).

If you ignore all the interrupts, time will skip ahead 3 years and you'll have money for a ship of your own. This will allow you to get into even more direct gameplay (like scouting the planet by hand, or accelerating the development of colonies, or critical rescues). This will continue as the nature of the disappearances is revealed, whether you play real-time or through chapters.

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Babba Yaga???? Really???? In a Space Epic???? Hmmm, that is very creative. :)

Yup, and her AT-ST style chicken hut walker kicks a##! [grin]

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You familiar with the short story "Inside Kick" ???

No, what is it about?

Before I try explaining my opinion ......

If this is a multi player game, how are you going to resolve temporal shifts?
You will have real time players in conflicting with people who want to skip over maybe 10 years.
Even 10 hours could be a problem for synchronizing players, events and interactions.

If this is not a multi player game, you will have to supply lots content for good replay ability. Else it will seam tepid, canned, and possibly boring. People can bring content into a game like a rich lady brings luggage on a trip. Otherwise you will need to supply everyone.

If you don't you may end up with, not literally but with feel of, :

nothings happened....
nothings happened....
hundred thousand years later.....
The galaxy collapsed on itself.
Your dead.
Game over.
Have a nice day :)

Being given very simple statements can have this effect.

Which brings me right into:

I wasn't talking about a modern 'ZORK'.

Your idea is right:

"String"<inserted string>"String","String"<inserted string>"String".

Oh, I think that is close to the right method of implementation. Just crank it up a notch.

use instead:

<IS><IS><IS>,<IS><IS><IS>.

Where each inserted string is in a database file. The database file would accessed via a linked list with multiple pointers, each pointer related to a meta level, decision, or event. This would create binary trees and lattice structures with great complexity, and less effort on your part.( a sort of story teller AI if you will:) )

But, you still need hundreds of good & solid stories, thousands of good story lines ( snippets), thousands of sentence fragments and nouns, and a few hundred generic events. (This is where it gets tough, depending on layer depth. Are you going to allow for multiple temporal layers or only meta to a single predetermined depth per situation? The example you give would seam to indicate possible multiple meta levels. Visually you could represent it with the three Cartesian axes being (x) causality (time), (y) depth of awareness (content detail for a given temporal stream), (z) tree depth (possible choices)........)

Anything less, and you will have a watered down version of a very good idea.
(Due, primarily, to a lack of cohesion. You will need to fill in the chain of events in an interesting manner.)

Explaining my opinion further......

Unless it is something like chess (strategy) or a sim (statistical approximation), it is going to be a story. Whether it is like a choose your own adventure, deterministic, or one that evolves due to player interaction, it will still need to abide by the rules good stories have always followed : the hook, plot, suspension of disbelief....exc.

There are no quasi stories. It is a story, or its not.

Try for something in-between will result in something akin to technical writing.

Nomatter if it is an Epic Era story or a intimate one, you will need good content. Can it be a story(+) ? Yes.

Story(-) and you end up with just a listing of events, usually uninteresting and not fun.( I'm not including strategy, sims, or shoot'm ups here. ) Anything even close to an RPG wont fly without a story. RPG's were created from the threads of traditional story tellers, and their methods.

Meta just puts the bar that much higher...... you are condensing content after all :)

I read some of your work in progress and it reminded me of the short.

"Galaxy Six", circa 1968, I believe that was the name of the book of short stories.
Now I read this in 1975 so.... I might not remember it all correctly......

"Inside Kick" was a short Space SIFI story about a cop, a detective, who was investigating illegal tobacco growing on a fringe world. He got the assignment, because he wouldn't play politics. He didn't get it. So his superiors gave him a high risk assignment in the fringe. Mobster territory. The mobsters got wind he was coming and nabbed him at the space port. Drove him out of the city were they could dispose of him in such a way as not to draw too much suspicion, and away from the crops. "An accident, offworlders are so clumsy." And, wham they hit a herd beast. An indigenous herbivore, only a few thousand left alive after colonization. The vehicular accident kills the two kidnapers, and the detective is knocked unconscious. What they didn't know was the herd beast was host to a intelligent parasite, a race that had inhabited the planet for eons. The herd beasts were their transportation and life support. They, unencumbered by mundane tasks, evolved into great philosophers and biological engineers. If he, the parasite hadn't been thinking of something else at the time, the accident would not of happened. The herd beast was dying and beyond repair. So, the parasite needed a replacement fast, and only one choice was left. Disgusted, the parasite inhabits the detective. .... And finds...."Intelligence, hmm" .... The parasite does some investigating and grows to like its new host. Humans have such great unused potential. Such engineering possibilities...... Thus begins a long journey for both in discovery... the parasite sort of becomes a second conscience, for the man, a sarcastic one. And the man discovers what he is capable of with a little inside kick.

I think the paracite extended his life span, bioenginering.
I can't remember.
Just thought it was interesting.

[Edited by - Kenneth Alexander on April 17, 2005 6:57:10 PM]

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Original post by Kenneth Alexander Unless it is something like chess (strategy) or a sim (statistical approximation), it is going to be a story. Whether it is like a choose your own adventure, deterministic, or one that evolves due to player interaction, it will still need to abide by the rules good stories have always followed : the hook, plot, suspension of disbelief....exc. There are no quasi stories. It is a story, or its not.

If you were talking about a book, I'd agree. But an RPG's definition is notorious for morphing, depending on the player. I have a great deal of disdain for the straight-jackets that pass for stories in games like Final Fantasy and Shen Mue, so it's likely that we won't agree on what makes a good story.

I think a successful player story won't follow any kind of multiple act structure, though it will have build-up and resolutions. I'm aiming more for the rambling event chains that make tabletop RPGs fun. This will certainly need a wide variety of situations, but because you'll be controlling the flow of the narrative I don't want any hand in trying to goad you down one path or another solely to satisfy some dramatic requirement. Sandbox-style play, and the stories that arise from it (mostly context and pretext for actions) can only be supported by abandoning a rigid, traditional definition of story.

I’ve been working midnights this week, so my thoughts probably have not been very lucid.

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Unless it is something like chess (strategy) or a simulation (statistical approximation), it is going to be a story. Whether it is like a choose your own adventure, deterministic, or one that evolves due to player interaction, it will still need to abide by the rules good stories have always followed: the hook, plot, suspension of disbelief.... exc. There are no quasi stories. It is a story, or its not.

You did ask:
Life stages, meta routines-Is this gameplay?
I’m giving my opinion. Maybe I’m wrong, but I like to think I have good taste.
You strike me as someone who wants to put something on the market better than the other guys.

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If you were talking about a book, I'd agree. But an RPG's definition is notorious for morphing, depending on the player. I have a great deal of disdain for the straight-jackets that pass for stories in games like Final Fantasy and Shen Mue, so it's likely that we won't agree on what makes a good story. I think a successful player story won't follow any kind of multiple act structure, though it will have build-up and resolutions. I'm aiming more for the rambling event chains that make tabletop RPGs fun. This will certainly need a wide variety of situations, but because you'll be controlling the flow of the narrative I don't want any hand in trying to goad you down one path or another solely to satisfy some dramatic requirement. Sandbox-style play, and the stories that arise from it (mostly context and pretext for actions) can only be supported by abandoning a rigid, traditional definition of story.

(Again, I do believe, I said not a modern 'Zork'; I had no interest in F.F.)

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Side note: Even 'ZORK' bored me before I ever completed it. Although it did have a killer text engine for the time, I found the game far too silly, far to restrictive. I noticed that it did appeal to people who love trying everything out, just to see what happens. I find puzzles like that, where you have to try everything out, to be a series of ego trips for the creators. "Now, guess what number I’m thinking of... nope. Wrong. Try again... nope. Your not very smart are you...nope. Damn your stupid... See. Wasn't that easy........." Some people think this is very creative, but in fact it is just a guessing game. I have no desire to think like the person who made the game, just to get to the next challenge. The puzzle needs to reasonably follow some normal reasoning process. Not puzzles like...."You awake in a room with no exit... all you have is a stick. Now, you have to figure out how to get out of this room..." (P.s. The last line, which I heard from a neighbor who won the Indiana lottery, does have a solution ...hehehe. I enjoy ego trips, occasionally. I wouldn't put one in normal play, but as fluff, an Easter egg. N.P.) J

Oh, I agree… almost.

But, I didn’t say anything about multiple act structure. Multiple act structure is not required for a story, a play, yes, but not a story. I’m not saying you can’t use a ridged structure for a story, but it isn’t necessary. If it were, RPG’s wouldn’t work.
But, RPG’s are built on story telling. RPGs are stories, not strait-jacketed necessarily, but they can't not be stories. I never liked being too restricted in a game either, whether it was a tabletop RPG or a computer game.


Traditionally, a story only required a series of events, and a character. That was the narrative, a snippet of the characters life often without the mundane everyday tasks of his life. This was often some important event, usually with some lesson to be learned, like eat your broccoli. What was crucial was emotional syncopation.
Sandbox-style play, doesn’t abandon the traditional definition of a story, it revels in it.

No, you are not writing a novel. I think I get that.

That would be far easier than writing a game; you wouldn't have to program anything.
But, remove the rules story tellers have used for hundreds of years and all you have left is people killing wandering monsters or NPCs, a hack and slash game. Or, as another example, if you reduce the over all content and add in the meta idea, you will end up with the same effect as reading a bunch of headlines without the stories to go along with them.

Blah, Blah, Blah…

Canned soup.

And, I don't think your aiming there either.

When I said the hook, plot, and suspension of disbelief. I meant emotional draw and the techniques used to establish it.

I'm Talking Depth here.... a feeling that the computer isn't just spiting out randomly mixed phrases.
It's the difference between: "Wowsa, what a ride. I hope I didn't miss anything."(And knowing you did ) and "Ok, if I put my money in beans I'll make two thousand credits instead of five hundred."
(Say those phrases aloud and you will hear what I mean.)

I'm talking emotion.... that’s why a hook works. It is how a hook works.

And, there is no reason to limit your game to just one hook. You could even make the program generate many hooks with emotional appeal, if you think about it psychologically.
Actually making hooks that attached to different NPCs might work even better than generic events. NPCs you love to hate… NPCs that intrigue you… NPCs that scare you…

I'm talking about snippets of text that immerse the player in the game when he reads them that will pull him in. Text, that puts more story in his head than what you or the computer can write, with grip. Let him make the details come together, but give him enough to keep him interested at any level of play. Give him the illusion of coherency.

How often do people kill other people for political power, or money? Think how often does the same scenario plays out in the real world, at all levels, which is the essence of what plot is. It is a general structure, not a detailed one. Think about how “Pulp Fiction” played out… Such a structure maybe bypassed, but the consequences are still felt. Ignorance is not bliss.

You can use solid story lines strictly with key NPCs, Planet histories, predictions of possible future events, or even plots hatched by random NPCs in positions of power. Please note, that none of this need be confining for you or the player. It should all be discard able, (not completely, but so no one part will inhibit player progression) but tie together if used, cohesively. And yes, the nouns can be swapped.

Story lines are history, the past, not the future.
Even predictions of future events are in the past, glimpses of what must come to pass or what may come to pass.
Some future event has actually already occurred.


Again, meta just puts the bar that much higher...... you are condensing content after all :)

Just a few additional thoughts...

I’m going to use a lattice structure instead of a tree, far more recursive and flexible. I can even use the same structure differently in different situations.

Rubik’s cube, crosswords, word finds, all Sims, and all strategies are puzzles. And, yes FPS are puzzles too; they are puzzles based on time and space.

All puzzles are games, not all games are puzzles.

(Games of chance can be very addictive. They require no story. They have no mystery. They are not even a puzzle. They are just chance and probability. But, casinos make millions every year. There is no short supply of people willing to play.)

Sims and strategy games may have story lines, or none at all.

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Original post by TechnoGoth ... You crash into a rouge planetoid and the time you spend trapped there is played out over a series of vinegrattes covering your surival on the planetoid during the months or years that pass before you are rescued. It could be intestesting if after spending 4 years trapped on a planet because of an "accident" you discover that everyone thinks you are dead. Do you contact your old allies? What if they had a hand in you being marooned? ...

Exactly, what if they did have a hand in your marooning. AND they did, but the player is not required to "figure this out". The game is so freeform that the player is only given subtle hints (in varying degrees of obviousness given the difficulty level chosen) regarding this conspiracy. If he picks up on these hints he will probably look into it. There are so many plot lines for a player to explore that every one is an option. There is such fullness of gameplay (something not fully covered in your idea) that the player may continue to play without choosing any of the story lines. OR if the player waits an extraordinary amount of time the game will proceed, gracefully and smoothly, into a particular story line for you.

Just imagine a couple of guys talking about the game:

"Hey! I found out the Liandri corp "PUT" me on that planet 4 years ago! They we're trying to get rid of me for the insurance money! I'm working on taking them down from the inside."

"No way! I did'nt catch that, I was too busy getting married to that girl Tandra and starting a business of my own. I've got a ton of cash so far."

A game this broad would be huge and big news AS LONG as it has the gameplay elements to support it. You could have the best story (or in this case, stories) yet without the fun factor you're doomed. And don't go saying that "the alternate stories ARE the gameplay". I guess that's the answer to your post's question. No this idea is'nt gameplay, but it sure is a great idea.

IMHO.

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.... And don't go saying that "the alternate stories ARE the gameplay". .... - jtoddknight

I guess that is about the best blunt statement you can get.
(And, that same thought was in the back of my mind as well.)

Let me expand it a little.

Although Rpg's are stories and games, the gameplay in any RPG isn't a story.
There is a distinction between the two.
My ending thoughts were about that.

If you take away the gameplay, all you have is a novel, fairy tale, or a script.

Story is the glue, the interest, not the gameplay itself. If you have too little glue, the game comes apart; it has no interest. If you have too much glue, the game is restrictive and rigid, maybe interesting, but no fun.

Gameplay is the pieces that are glued, not the glue itself.

Can you have gameplay without story?
Yes.
That is what puzzles are.
One large object that requires no assembly, no glue.
An object that is a question, a riddle, and its interest begins and ends with the question that the puzzle embodies.

Once you have more than one puzzle, you need glue.
You need story. Even if the story is created on the fly.
Without gamplay, however, you don't have a game. (Even nonpuzzles, games of chance, have gameplay. They just lack the question/riddle.)

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A game this broad would be huge and big news AS LONG as it has the gameplay elements to support it. You could have the best story (or in this case, stories) yet without the fun factor you're doomed. And don't go saying that "the alternate stories ARE the gameplay". I guess that's the answer to your post's question. No this idea is'nt gameplay, but it sure is a great idea. - jtoddknight

I agree, and, as you can see, I couldn't of said it better myself.

[Edited by - Kenneth Alexander on April 19, 2005 2:07:21 PM]

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Original post by jtoddknight Just imagine a couple of guys talking about the game: "Hey! I found out the Liandri corp "PUT" me on that planet 4 years ago! They we're trying to get rid of me for the insurance money! I'm working on taking them down from the inside." "No way! I did'nt catch that, I was too busy getting married to that girl Tandra and starting a business of my own. I've got a ton of cash so far."

[smile] I really like this possibility, especially the fun you might get from knowing that NPCs have agendas that might tangle up what you're trying to do. A lot of this falls into the category of reactions, of knowing that when you push, the people in the game may push back.

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A game this broad would be huge and big news AS LONG as it has the gameplay elements to support it. You could have the best story (or in this case, stories) yet without the fun factor you're doomed. And don't go saying that "the alternate stories ARE the gameplay".

Wouldn't dream of it, unless the alternate stories spawned situations that lead to gameplay.

I think there are some players who will get a boost out of making long term life choices that balance risks and resources whether there's a way to act out the low-level gameplay or not. But I think most players want to act out specific encounters while knowing that those encounters mean something to the big picture.

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Original post by Kenneth Alexander Traditionally, a story only required a series of events, and a character. That was the narrative, a snippet of the characters life often without the mundane everyday tasks of his life. This was often some important event, usually with some lesson to be learned, like eat your broccoli. What was crucial was emotional syncopation. Sandbox-style play, doesn’t abandon the traditional definition of a story, it revels in it. No, you are not writing a novel. I think I get that. That would be far easier than writing a game; you wouldn't have to program anything. But, remove the rules story tellers have used for hundreds of years and all you have left is people killing wandering monsters or NPCs, a hack and slash game. Or, as another example, if you reduce the over all content and add in the meta idea, you will end up with the same effect as reading a bunch of headlines without the stories to go along with them.

Hmmm... I'm trying to wrap my head around what you're expressing here (I'm not one to ignore warnings, so FWIW I am trying to understand your concern here).

The trouble I'm having stems from my experience playing or observing others playing comptuer RPGs: Unless the game is totally preoccupied with story, as a Final Fantasy or Shen Mue is, there seem to be two phases. The first is setup and context, and involves absorbing context and sensation, rather than doing anything. This is classical movie / play / book stuff.

The second phase is doing. You know why, you're theoretically emotionally engaged, and now the problem-solving part of your mind is involved in coming up with solutions or assessing the situation as well as your next move.

Even in a simple game (like Escape Velocity, which uses vignettes as mission starters), the first phase, with decent writing, is easy to do compared with everything else. Players just want a good reason for doing something, and a twist from time to time. (I remember a quote from some writer who said "There is only one plot: Nothing is as it seems.")

It's the second phase where I think players will spend most of their time. They'll be making choices, weighing resources, figuring out alliances or NPC intentions, all in the forms of gameplay the game gives to express this (combat, stealth, trade).

What I'm understanding from your posts is that you think this has to be a very finely tuned, complex formula. But what I suspect is that all I need to do is give you a reason to engage in the normal gameplay, because that reason (even a flimsy one) will change the CONTEXT. The player's imagination will supply the rest.