Guys, read this: http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20041229/kelly_01.shtml
That is true that old systems still have users. And quantity of user should be almost the same as quantity of systems sold previously. So new systems will have less users that previous system. Look at Hollywood movies. Alot of good movies don't have nice CG. But they have nice, vibrant picture. And they won Oscars. And Made big $$$. So why games can't be the same way. Have a nice picture and have interesting scenario, exciting gameplay.... Well I guess Im going to offtopic.

Who besides SEGA can have info about status of their old system at the market?
Is it the same way to get DevKit for PS One as for PS2? Or because system is old it's easier? How about price on that DevKit?

P.S. Thanks Dan for phone number.

Quote: Original post by motorsep
[What - reverse engineering? Why do you think it led to downfall of that system?

When the boot disc was released, the number of systems purchased increased significantly, while the number of games purchased decreased significantly.

While the lack of 3rd party support was hurting Sega, the shear ease of piracy was the death dealing blow.
~~
Old movies are not like old hardware. Few people still have their Dreamcast hooked up, unlike their VCRs or DVDs. The few people who are still Dreamcast afficonatos are more likely to be pirates than legitimate customers, because it's difficult for legitimate customers to get a legal games.

Quote: Who besides SEGA can have info about status of their old system at the market?
Is it the same way to get DevKit for PS One as for PS2? Or because system is old it's easier? How about price on that DevKit?

To get an offical devkit is expensive, regardless of age.

The only way to obtain Offical devkits is through Sony / Sega. Devkits are usually resellable, but only to approved companies. If you don't have a few thousand lying around and a good plan to produce commercial quality games, you probably won't be approved.

Quote: Original post by motorsep
That is true that old systems still have users. And quantity of user should be almost the same as quantity of systems sold previously.

Sorry but this simply isn't true because many of the people who bought those old systems abandoned them when the upgraded. I bought a Spectrum and a megadrive and a SNES, an ST a PS1. By your calculation that means there is a person using each of those systems - but there isn't. None of them are ever used. They are all in boxes in my attic. A very small number of people may have their retro systems out but even those people aren't buying anything apart from old second hand games. - The Dreamcast is included in that.

Yes the PS1 still has a market (although a declining one) but even if you could get a developer license and get a development kit (in the region of $10,000) it would be very difficult to sell the game. Publishers really only want licensed games on an older system like the PS1 - It is already becoming hard to get Publishers to sign up new original IP games for PS2.

Quote: Original post by Binomine

Quote: Original post by motorsep
[What - reverse engineering? Why do you think it led to downfall of that system?

Few people still have their Dreamcast hooked up, unlike their VCRs or DVDs. The few people who are still Dreamcast afficonatos are more likely to be pirates than legitimate customers, because it's difficult for legitimate customers to get a legal games.

I still have my dreamcast hooked up. Its provided me with hours upon hours of fun, and I'd much prefer having legal copies, for the most part, I buy them when I find them if its something I'm interested in.

Quote: Original post by Obscure
Sorry but this simply isn't true because many of the people who bought those old systems abandoned them when the upgraded.

True. But Alot of people put old systems to the Pawn Shop. And other people who can not afford to buy new systems, go to Pawn Shop and buy PS One, Dreamcast, etc. That's why Im assuming that there is still alot of old DC in use. I could be wrong. That's why Im here :)

Quote: Original post by Obscure
Publishers really only want licensed games on an older system like the PS1 - It is already becoming hard to get Publishers to sign up new original IP games for PS2.

I think that's a vicious practice. The manufacturers put pressure on publishers and publishers dictate rules to developers. That's reality, but that's wrong and I read alot about same opinion. That's why games will never stand at the same pedestal as movies if things are going to be the same way.
It's gotta be way to change situation. I just want to make difference. And Im going to. At least make an attempt....

Quote: Original post by motorsep
True. But Alot of people put old systems to the Pawn Shop. And other people who can not afford to buy new systems, go to Pawn Shop and buy PS One, Dreamcast, etc. That's why Im assuming that there is still alot of old DC in use. I could be wrong. That's why Im here :)

If people were using old consoles and buying software we would see signs of that. They don't sneak around at night going to secret underground software markets. An active market is a visible market and there isn't a visible market for old console games.

Also, people who buy new machines buy vastly more software than people who don't upgrade or who own old machines. By targeting old machines you are targeting the market least likely to buy your products. You will spend the sam effort making the game for much smaller return. Lastly, as previously mentioned, you would still have the costs of manufacturing and licensing etc for the console. As others have said. If you want to dev for Dreamcast as a hobby, fine. If you want to do dev as a business then it simply isn't a viable market.

Quote: I think that's a vicious practice. The manufacturers put pressure on publishers and publishers dictate rules to developers. That's reality, but that's wrong and I read alot about same opinion.

I am afraid it has nothing to do with the hardware companies and everything to do with the customers. They don't dictate what the publishers create. At the end of the console lifestyle the people dictating what gets made are the customers. When a console is new the users are more likely to be hardcore gamers. They like original games and are willing to experiment. When the console gets older and more established the casual gamers move in and they buy things that they recognise - their favorite sport/team, big film license, toy or comic licenses or sequels. Time and again the customers ignore original games in favour of licenses so that is what the publishers give them.

Dan, I have to agree. You have a good point and Im sure you have facts regarding old system's market vs new system's market in UK. In US it probably the same, but it also could be different. I lived in UK for awhile and I can say US compare to UK is very different, mentality is very different. Asia in game aspects probably different from US and UK. I think without at least little research it's hard to say that old systems abandoned and there is no way to make healthy profit for a small company by selling games for old systems (DC, PS One)

I can not agree that game sales depend only on customers. I was working for awhile in advertising industry and I know for sure that proper marketing can sell ugly product. Right, it's easier to sell games based on comics/movies, sequels, etc. But it's easier because you don't have to make new and effective campaign to market NFL 2009 for abstractive exapmle. People will go and buy it even if it's still NFL 99 with new graphics and animation.
But I belive with original IP, nice scenario, exciting (it doesn't have to be innovative) gameplay and with proper marketing we can put new games on the market and be succesful. The issue here is a publisher. Publisher can be a friend if he doesn't ask for 90% of profit and all right on original IP. But it's rare novadays. Im not saying that business model is dying, but I don't feel comfortable by making one game, put alot of effort, create IP, give it away, get paid along development cycle and do not get as much profit as I should get at the end, and then be closed down or abandoned by current publisher. Look for another one and repeat all cycle all over again. I don't think it's right. And I don't think there is nothing we can do about it.
Thanks.