Slowpid - I am perfectly happy being classified as a niche writer. I want to write science fiction/sociology/alternate sexualities/romance. My goal as a writer has always been to write a book which someone like me would be ecstaticly happy to find on a bookstore shelf. I am not really interested in writing to please people other than myself, since those vague 'other people' don't agree on what I like and rarely even bother to give me constructive feedback on my writing, or help motivate me to keep writing. It's like the Little Red Hen - If I have to do all the work of baking the bread myself, I'm damn well going to bake what I like to eat and eat it all myself. ;) Since there aren't that many people like me, I suppose that makes it a niche audience. (Although I continue to be impressed by the huge number of women who like romance, and the astonishing amount to which they agree on what is attractive, probably because of female evolutionary biology.) I do believe that romance fans, anime fans, and any other sort of fans can be classified because they demonstrate distinct patterns of preferance for certain things, which result in writers and publishers producing entertainments which conform to one of these patterns of preferance.

I am concerned that you think my character relations are unrealistic. That my stories may be repetitive and boring when taken as a group, I understand - I am working toward publishing a novel with themes of gender and transformation, and my stories are various small attempts to practice handling these themes, and certain character archetypes and dynamics, from slightly different angles. Basically I don't consider myself to have officially 'used' anything until it's published, so until then I have no qualms about re-using any of it if doing so helps my learning process. But the character relations are an entirely different matter. I have a mental model of possible personality types and motivations characters may be driven by, and if this model is flawed that would be a big problem for me. Vivid emotions are key to my work. People read romances because they crave to read about intense emotions, characters experiencing loneliness, fear of rejection, intense desire, nervous attempts at pursuing/impressing the beloved, amused fondness, worshipful loyalty, fierce protectiveness, sexual bliss, and Happily Ever After endings. Realism is not the goal, because reality is not romantic; the goal is romanticized virsimilitude. So the question is, do you like romance? Do you think my character relations are unrealistic when compared to great works of romantic fiction, such as _Pride and Prejudice_? If so, why?

Estok - I do not like this model at all. No wonder I always end up angry and unhappy when I try to talk to you! I am not interested in attacking anything! Instead I have been thinking:

My casual friend put a copy of his half-finished sculpture on the table and invited us all to try to improve it. Okay, sounds like fun, I like being halpful and I like playing with the possibiblities of a half-finished idea. Now, my friend wants to learn from the changes I make, so I have to explain why I make them. I can't improve the sculpture without identifying areas that seem like flaws to me.

This particular sculpture is orange (about war). I happen to hate the color orange, so I would consider it an improvement to make this sculpture blue, but I realize this is a personal bias, so I had better explain that to my friend. Saying "I don't like orange." is not attacking the sculpture or the technique with which it was made, it is warning my friend that, while I will try to give only criticism that has a legitimate base in theory, as long as the sculpture stays orange I can't help disliking that, and wouldn't buy the finished sculpture to put in my house no matter how technically perfect it was. Why is my friend responding to my earnest and careful attempt to help with personal insults and attacks on one of my sculptures which is totally off topic? He must have been offended by my constructive criticism and responded by lashing out at me wherever he though I was vulnerable. So if he is offended and my feelings are hurt I better shut up before we become enemies. He seems to think his sculpture is perfect (bulletproof) as it is, so there's no point in my trying to suggest improvements anyway. I ought not to try to critique his sculptures any more because it was a waste of time and it made me unhappy.

Quote: Original post by Estok
What do you think in her design that is stretching the limits of imagination?

Well the thing is that, i didnt finish the quote because i had limited times.
Stretching in a way to add animal traits to an adult story. Not that no one has done it. It is the fact that adding a certain realism, that is one of todays issue, is sexuality. Meaning Homo, Heter, and Bi. I didnt mean the fact that he stretching the limits of imagination(mistell that), I was simply tryna get my point in a short matter of time. It was the fact that he is willing to break boundries. That is what i mean.

Xenic20 - I am a she. Thanks for defending me though. :)

Some definitions in the context of a discussion about designs:

Design: The set of conscious or subconscious decisions that assigns associtions between objectives and its representation or implementation.

Flaw: An ill association between an objective and its representation or implementation. Flaws of a design can only be caused by the designer.

Attack: A comments or statement used to expose a flaw of a design. Note that attacks cannot introduce flaws, only expose them.

Out-of-context attack: A comment or statement that targets a representation or implementation of the design with no regard of its corresponding objective.


'Attack' is essential in this context. It takes rational thoughts and changes of perspective to initiate meaningful attacks. And change of perspective is what you are refusing to do. Which cripples you as an evaluator and designer.

Quote: This particular sculpture is orange (about war). I happen to hate the color orange, so I would consider it an improvement to make this sculpture blue, but I realize this is a personal bias, so I had better explain that to my friend. Saying "I don't like orange." is not attacking the sculpture or the technique with which it was made, it is warning my friend that, while I will try to give only criticism that has a legitimate base in theory, as long as the sculpture stays orange I can't help disliking that, and wouldn't buy the finished sculpture to put in my house no matter how technically perfect it was.

This is an out-of-context attack. It is like going to the pulitzer prize photo gallery as an evaluator and give all the photos involving wars and suffering zeros. It is ridiculous. And you didn't realize it is ridiculous in the context of the discussion. Read very carefully, I was not objecting you being a niched writer, I was objecting you being a irrational evaluator.

Quote: Why is my friend responding to my earnest and careful attempt to help with personal insults and attacks on one of my sculptures which is totally off topic? He must have been offended by my constructive criticism and responded by lashing out at me wherever he though I was vulnerable. So if he is offended and my feelings are hurt I better shut up before we become enemies.

I have stated that there is no personal insult. You did not read my posts correctly in the context. However your logic is vulnerable. Your comments are not constructive because they are off topic and out of context. The thread stated very clearly that this is a discussion about the associations between the story and the characters, although I did not try to explicitly correct you.

Quote: He seems to think his sculpture is perfect (bulletproof) as it is, so there's no point in my trying to suggest improvements anyway. I ought not to try to critique his sculptures any more because it was a waste of time and it made me unhappy.

Don't you think that it make sense to put up something for people to attack because it is thought to be bulletproof? This is another instance where your logic is flawed. Again, your logic is vulnerable. And when I tell you that it is, you feel offended. I have been telling you that your logics is flawed since the beginning of the CWP. You didn't improve, and remained a pretty bad evaluator.

If you think that calling you a bad evaluator is offensive, please think about what you have just thought. Because that thought shows another logic flaw. If you don't know why I can tell you why.

Quote:
Attack: A comments or statement used to expose a flaw of a design. Note that attacks cannot introduce flaws, only expose them.

Out-of-context attack: A comment or statement that targets a representation or implementation of the design with no regard of its corresponding objective.

Quote:
please think about what you have just thought. Because that thought shows another logic flaw.

Dude, as much as I enjoy a good soap, you're starting to sound like a robot. When did the good old-fashioned 'YOUR ARGUMENT SUCKS' get outdated?

Also, I was wondering - why is it that you two, given your past history, feel compelled to come back for more instead of just staying away from each others' stories? I mean, surely the ensuing grief isn't worth it.

Estok, links to your concept art are broken.

Raw

Quote: Original post by Vaevictis_A
Dude, as much as I enjoy a good soap, you're starting to sound like a robot. When did the good old-fashioned 'YOUR ARGUMENT SUCKS' get outdated?

About 6 monts ago. It was the exact kind of exchange between 5min and I in the beginning. We were like cavemen and it was all cool until I clubbed s/s and she blew up. Not everyone can take it raw, although that is the way I would prefer. So rock on. Now at least I know one subject that can take diet-free criticism.

Quote: Also, I was wondering - why is it that you two, given your past history, feel compelled to come back for more instead of just staying away from each others' stories? I mean, surely the ensuing grief isn't worth it.

For me, I have no reason not to. In terms of commenting her design, I am the most logical commenter because I was in the project and practically watched it grow up. No one else can stab her design as deeply and easily as I can, which puts me in a logical position to comment.



Concept Art
Frequency - I am obviuosly not a mech designer so the exact concept of the bike is undefined.

Gillieon - This concept art is a misrepresentation. Halfway through drawing it I couldn't get it right so I just continued with what I got. If I am able to draw a second one I will let you compare.

Gillieon 2 - This is closer to the personality of Gillieon. Gillieon is not supposed to be a stupid blonde you see above.

Quote: Gillieon - The seductive, elegant, sentient spy robot belonged to Luth that appears to be another human uncovered from the frozen plane. She has a deep understanding of dreams and seems to be unexplanably attracted to you. In terms of the gameplay, she is the RNPC that the player would most likely end up with if the player has no clue what is actually going on in the story. She also serves as the hint-giver of the game by explaining your dreams.

You are talking to her in a bar. She looks at you with dreamy eyes mesmerized not by your conversation but by you, as if just the presence of you is so important and desirable that she could very well do without any talking. Her gentle hand caressing behind her neck seems to suggest where she wants you to put your hand. Her slighted parted lips seem to be anticipating a kiss that she wouldn't dare to initiate.

Gillieon - Dreamy and infinitely attracted to the player.

Quote: Original post by Vaevictis_A
Also, I was wondering - why is it that you two, given your past history, feel compelled to come back for more instead of just staying away from each others' stories? I mean, surely the ensuing grief isn't worth it.

For me, probably it's because Estok often posts about subjects that I am interested in - I really don't know anybody else who's interested in talking about the principles of story design and how to use specific elements to accomplish design goals. That's one of my favorite subjects, so I feel left out if I try to make myself not join in the conversation because I know it will turn into an argument. I learn things about writing and myself by thinking about the questions Estok asks, even if he generally doesn't like my answers.

Quote: Original post by sunandshadow
Xenic20 - I am a she. Thanks for defending me though. :)

Oops My B.
Wow a female designer, this world is evolving quickly.

Well in any case, the story can be a breakthrough, or it can be the next game
in the hall of shame. But u have to understand the risk in making this contraversal game.


I would like to give some of my techinques on character building.



One of my techniques is to make the character's personality the opposite of his physical image. It makes the character more interesting. For example, in my story,


There is an orc. In many stories orcs are considered to be evil and destructive creatures. I made it so that other races and orcs can get along, but there is still abit segregation (realism). I made one of the main characters an orc that is very sensitive and loves the smell of flowers, aside from his destructive loving race.



This is a technique used for starwars. The storm troopers where dressed in white. Usually evil people dress in black, aside from darth vader. The same technique is also used for Dragon Ball Z. Goku is a saiyan, a decendent from a destructive race, But goku loves animals, butterflies. The simple things in life.

Making a character that is the complete opposite from his ancesters always works. Or if he is Big and Bulky, make him sensitive and kind. If he is short and small, make him arrogant and a bit of a prune.

That is my favorite technique. I hope it is good use for u.