I should clarify, racism is an important issue, but the controversy over it''s moral base is long gone.

No one will publicly say that racism is a good thing. They may argue about if it exists in this country now, or whhat it''s causes are, but they won''t support it.

So how do you maintain this "moral center" for a game. The way I see it you get two results. One where you fold to the moral majority and the other where they spit in your face for opposing them. If you''re gonna do a controversial game, book, or movie don''t you need to get into the heads of those with the "immoral" view? And then portray things as they see them? It''d make most people sick unless things wind up with some glimmer of hope that looks like own safe happy little world at the end.

Let''s try something. If anyone thinks they can come up with an idea for a controversial game, let''s hear it. I think it''ll either come accross as preachy or evil. Unless maybe it winds up being some buy low, sell high game of drug dealing that the message would be completly lost in.

Please prove me wrong.

Ok, so I just got around to reading the thread that spawned this one. My only problem with the gang war thing is that it''s just gonna become another war strategy game. People will play it as a war strategy game and the message will be lost.

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Original post by kseh

So how do you maintain this "moral center" for a game. The way I see it you get two results. One where you fold to the moral majority and the other where they spit in your face for opposing them. If you're gonna do a controversial game, book, or movie don't you need to get into the heads of those with the "immoral" view? And then portray things as they see them? It'd make most people sick unless things wind up with some glimmer of hope that looks like own safe happy little world at the end.

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Excellent, excellent point kseh. I think you do indeed need to get into the heads of the immoral, but the characters and / or events __YOU__ as a writer / designer put forth are what maintain the center.

Let's look at Fatherland. ***SPOILER WARNING****
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(clipped from a website synopsis: )
The story: Hitler won the war and is about to celebrate his 75th birthday, having fooled everyone regarding the atrocities committed during the war, even having Pres Joseph Kennedy of the US over, but everything is about to come down around his ears. A Nazi crook is seeking asylum from the US, and is willing to pay with information about the curious absence of Jews from the Nazi state. Hauer is an SS officer, Xavier March, divorced or separated, father of a brainwashed little boy, and becomes drawn into trouble when investigating the murder of a former top party guy.
Naturally being told to lay off doesn't do the trick, since Rutger is a man of conscience, an innocent in the midst of corruption. Matters are complicated by the arrival of some US journalists, who are to report on the celebration, including a former German woman who is every bit as stubborn as Xavier March and is contacted by the would-be defector. She comes into possession of the information which she shows a disbelieving March - proof that the Jews were all killed - who is shocked to his very soul by the rot at the heart of his country. He tries to leave with his son who betrays him by phoning the authorities. He is shot and mortally wounded, but manages to tell his son that it wasn't his fault before dying in a phone booth. The journalist hands over the info to the visiting Pres who goes right back home. She is unresistingly captured herself. The world knows the truth about Germany, but the country and its citizens have little in the line of a bright future to look forward to, and our heroes are both dead.
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Okay, so the great thing about the writer's storyline is that Germany is punished for its evils. It would have made a vastly different story, and a sinister statement, if Germany had triumphed and everything was sweetness and light.

Now real history DOES work that way. Nations commit genocide and get away with it scott free (American history is a great example). But the point is, you have to take a moral stand and deal with the issue from there. This affects everything from your plotline, to your characterization, to your music.

Fatherland comes fromt the moral center that the Holocaust was evil, and never loses that.

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Let's try something. If anyone thinks they can come up with an idea for a controversial game, let's hear it. I think it'll either come accross as preachy or evil. Unless maybe it winds up being some buy low, sell high game of drug dealing that the message would be completly lost in.

Please prove me wrong.

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Here's my concept: An RPG-like where you play Cherokee or Apache in the 1800s. It's completely historically accurate, and does not flinch from the reality of the times; people speak the way they spoke then, and act the way they acted from the historical record.

The core gameplay is about keeping your tribe alive. This is done through personal character missions that let you explore the world and be treated as you would be back in that time. The game is set inside an evolving campaign that accurately parallels the course of history. Every effort is made to show the game through the eyes of realistic characters, which means character relations and interaction are crucial to gameplay.

As a member of the Cherokee or Apache tribe you either struggle with US diplomats who backstab and break treaties as per history, or fight with American settlers who want your land. Christian missionaries kidnap your children, and you fight with the US military, either abstractly or as a sort of RTS. However, every struggle isn't about winning, but about holding out against annihilation. In fact, extremely successful military actions like the Battle of Little Big Horn bring __MORE__ death and destruction to your people.

For the Cherokee, the end game is the Trail of Tears. The victory condition is simply making enough choices to not be annihilated. The macbre "high score" is "tribe integrity," or how many people you've saved from cultural assimilation, disease, or death.

Throughout the game, no preaching is made. Sh*t just happens the same way it would have, __WITHOUT ANY COMMENT WHATSOEVER__.

Oh, yeah, and the end movie indicates your success while sweeping over the rundown wreck of a modern day reservation.

*sarcasm*
Who wants to help get started?
*/sarcasm*



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Just waiting for the mothership...



Edited by - Wavinator on November 6, 2000 9:45:20 PM

Wavinator, Thats not that bad of a start...I actually would love to see an indian game where you control a tribe in the times around and after the Lewis and Clark Expedition, where tribes are being pulled from eachother and from their land.

What about a rpg-esque game that takes place in the times of the American Civil War? That is ripe with great drama to work with..shattered futures, forgotten innocence, undaunted courage, brother against brother, friends and family on boths sides of the field, larger then life characters...and...issues running the gamut from war, freedom, slavery, man''s ability to fight and kill his own countrymen for a cause he does understand or believe, etc.. not really controversial, but has a lot of potential issue and drama-wise.

How about a Nazi concentration camp game, though you are either a prisoner looking for a way to free the others...or a guard who is torn between loyalty to his country and loyalty to a friend(s) who is a prisoner, so you would get to play and see both sides of the world.

Or a game based in the times of slavery (when that guy? tried to bring guns and weapons to start a revolt and free the slaves of the south, but failed) well what if he succeeded.

A deep-cover type game, where you enter a dark world from the outside (either a world of racism, murder, drugs, etc..) so the player isn''t necessarily a product of that world ,but is none the less affected by it.

Or a modern game that places you in the mind of a pyscho, though the player doesn''t know it.

Just a few rough ideas..that would give a setting for controversy, raising issues, and showing emotion. I think it''s possible...

A game set in the 1800''s. Oh, that would be fantastic! Just the possible props alone that you could draw from would make the game a work of art.

Just imagine, steamers plying the rivers, steam locomotives rolling down the rails, canoes, covered wagons, corrals, horses, pistols, rifles, southern plantations, teepees, tribal war paint...

Well, in my fantasy RPG setting, the dwarves already invented steam. I thought that it would fit a kind of cross-era artistry... Tribes are another thing that I never considered though... Hmmmm

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers'' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

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Original post by dwarfsoft

Well, in my fantasy RPG setting, the dwarves already invented steam. I thought that it would fit a kind of cross-era artistry... Tribes are another thing that I never considered though... Hmmmm

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Steam is good. We need to see more steam driven devices. I think because it harks back to a more romantic era. Not exactly controversial, but still, steam is good.

Ah, yes... Steam is a clean alternative... Unless you consider that you have to burn coal to get it... But you can invent a lot of steam powered machines . Flame Cannon Away!

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers'' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

- How about tribes of Nazi dwarves battling on steam-powered rollerskates? With sewing machines? Under the Eiffel Tower?
~
--- You could go for a "Casino Royale" type setting where the design of everything is completely unrelated to the design of anything else. -And until teenagers start going on murderous rampages with sewing machines, it''d be tough for anyone to claim you were encouraging violence. Invent a whole assortment of weapons that aren''t really weapons: a system of martial arts that uses an ironing board, for example. - Lubb