Hi again.. I love online games. I started with Tribes 1 (imo best online shooter ever) and in the years that followed I played lots of online games, all shooters at first but later on I found out about so called MMORPG's :o So after mastering BF 42 (top 1% of players.. yes, I am God) I tried some MMORPG's.. I went on to these online RPG's.. I've tried a lot but all seemed to have the same problem: they all lacked the true adventures youd expect in an alternate world filled with danger, and instead featured "the Grind": Horribly repetative "game play" wich has you kill mobs for hours on end. You might think I'm a MMORPG hater but Im not.. hell I play Lineage 2 wich has the hardest grind there is (I just returned from a 4-5 hour session wich got me up only 50% .. finally im LVL 30). L2 fans call this "hardcore gaming" I find its frikking annoying considering that fighting npcs takes almost no skill. But what else can developers do? If it wouldnt take such a long time to get good/high lvl. People would finish the game really fast and end their subscriptions. You cant expect the developers to constantly come up with new missions like in non online RPG's (IMO there arent any REAL missions in MMORPG's.. its always.. kill 200 of them and collect me 50 of that.. o and while your at it clear the area of those) it would be to consuming, youd need a HUUUUGE team. So what do you thinkll be a good alternative to grinding for hours and hours and hours?

You can find a number of good threads around here about ways to circumvent the "goblin genocide" method of character development. My favorite has always been some rational form of skill acquisition. I never really understood why stabbing five thousand imps teaches you to shoot lightning out of your hands.

I'd like to see a skill acquisition system based on specific practice and training. Kengo II, a mediocre fighting game for PS2, had a neat system where you practice different skills or train yourself physically, and then you go and try to enroll in various sword schools to learn new moves, which you can integrate into your repertoire. You get faster by cutting bamboo in a nearby grove, you get stronger by cracking poles with your bokken, you get tougher by standing under a rushing waterfall. Then you practice against classmates to train your physical attributes into combat skills.

So if you had adventures that actually led to you getting a chance to train with some mountain-top-dwelling guru, or if you could go live in the wilds with a knife and a loincloth to buff your outdoorsman skill, I would find the game more impressive. Just having XP be the currency of ardor makes for flat, boring gameplay.

To be honest, I don't really like the idea of "levelling" in an MMO game. I know it's a staple, and people won't adapt well to change, but we need to be weaned off of the idea that our character's progress and worth has a numerical value. It leads to genuinely invincible griefers, and it makes you play like a sissy at the beginning. "Oh, I don't dare leave the Shire until at LEAST level 12."

So, stop offering XP as a reward, and start offering actual progress. If you want the steadily accruing value that XP provides, use a reputation system. Then you can scale it so that a big, bad death knight with a lot of fame will only be able to increase his legend by doing really amazing things. It would make for a more realistic way to tier players. Guys that do well, take risks and succeed will be just as "buffed" as guys who wander around ten times as long killing wolves and brigands.

To sum up, get rid of the grind by making the grind less valuable to players. If killing packs of rats and clouds of sparrows is the best way to develop your character, than people are going to do that. If its just a boring, stupid waste of time (which it generally is even when it's beneficial), then people will refrain.

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Original post by Iron Chef Carnage You can find a number of good threads around here about ways to circumvent the "goblin genocide" method of character development. My favorite has always been some rational form of skill acquisition.

The funny thing is, the first MMORPG by many measures (Ultima Online) did exactly this, yet people keep citing this system as being something new and desirable. In fact, I think you'll find that the good old treadmill model of Everquest and friends has the interesting property of really annoying a minority but being the system of choice for most. People enjoy the predictable improvements, the ease of comparison with other players, the visible goals to work towards, and so on. Of course, that's a generalisation, but large scale games need to cater to a general audience. (And before anyone says it, that's not to say all games must cater to that audience. Quite the opposite, in fact.)

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To be honest, I don't really like the idea of "levelling" in an MMO game. I know it's a staple, and people won't adapt well to change, but we need to be weaned off of the idea that our character's progress and worth has a numerical value. It leads to genuinely invincible griefers, and it makes you play like a sissy at the beginning. "Oh, I don't dare leave the Shire until at LEAST level 12."

You're confusing the common implementation of the XP-levels system with the system itself. Generally these games give a character an amount of power exponentially proportional to their level. So a level 10 character is perhaps 100x more deadly than a level 1 character, and a level 50 character might be thousands of times more deadly than a level 25. However there's no rule saying that this needs to be the case, and in fact the system from which this all sprung (Dungeons and Dragons) has a much flatter power curve than this. In fact, it was expected that 10 level 2 characters would stand a chance against 2 level 10 characters, and the system allowed this by increasing the effective stats linearly instead of exponentially.

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So, stop offering XP as a reward, and start offering actual progress. If you want the steadily accruing value that XP provides, use a reputation system. Then you can scale it so that a big, bad death knight with a lot of fame will only be able to increase his legend by doing really amazing things.

That provides the ego boost aspect of levels but not the payback. Levelling up gives you a tangible reward for your efforts. Psychologically this is akin to the occasional victories in gambling, forming a higher degree of interest than you'd get with a gradual improvement.

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Guys that do well, take risks and succeed will be just as "buffed" as guys who wander around ten times as long killing wolves and brigands.

But should they? Should one halfling that got lucky with a 1% chance of killing a dragon be as 'buffed' as the seasoned wolf-and-brigand hunter? I am happy with them having the same reputation, but should they get the same rewards in other ways? I think not.

Ever try Planetside? Its very, very much like Tribes, but on a much larger scale (5000 people per server, 10 peristant continents, etc). Here's some ingame video's made by the players using FRAPS that should give a pretty good example of gameplay. I really like the game simply because of the wierd and hilarious moments people can share in moments of utter bloodshed and seige assaults. ;D

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Original post by Gyrthok Ever try Planetside? Its very, very much like Tribes, but on a much larger scale (5000 people per server, 10 peristant continents, etc). Here's some ingame video's made by the players using FRAPS that should give a pretty good example of gameplay. I really like the game simply because of the wierd and hilarious moments people can share in moments of utter bloodshed and seige assaults. ;D

Ya been there done that.. Though I find planetside more a MMOFPS. The game handles the problem of grinding well as it has none.. but the game to me feels quite unrewarding. Taking a base feels great, logging on a few hours later and seeing the base has been taken over yet again however makes it all feel useless. Whats the point if you can never really achieve something??
Grinding for hours and hours is stupid but you are rewarded..

I like the fact that Planetside is skill based (the 1337 micro skilled, not the skilltree skilled). New players CAN take on high level ones if theyre good enough. Your character evolves but the enhancements make only that much of a difference.
Most other MMO games dont have that.. You just dont need much skill for playing RPG's. Of course you have your basic tactics for taking down enemies but it doesnt go deep and hand-eye coördination is completely kept out of the games.

I think changing that would make a big difference.. LVL then would be nice but not as important as it is now.
Why are RPG's so static any way? Would it hurt if you had direct control over your character? Itd make the game more difficult but isnt that what "hardcore" gamers like? A hard learning curve "to keep the riff raff out" :P ?

How about a system with NO lvling just skilltrees youd have to work up. And have the game have different ways to get these skills. Of course there'd be the usual skill points wich would have you do the grind thing. But there would be alternatives for getting the skills.. like giving BIG SP bonusses when killing someone in PVP (im a fan of PVP) and maybe have special missions for certain skills.
I think that this, in combination with direct control would be a HUGE improvement to the MMO games currently around..

Oops did i just make this thread into a "hi i have this great idea for a game, its online and really great and original and it will rock.. only i dont know how to make it.. so plz tell me wich book to buy (with the codes and stuff) so i can make the game and get really rich"-thread?

:o excuse me

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Original post by TheRealMcenzy How about a system with NO lvling just skilltrees youd have to work up. And have the game have different ways to get these skills. Of course there'd be the usual skill points wich would have you do the grind thing. But there would be alternatives for getting the skills.

As Kylotan observed, Ultima Online does (or did, I havn't kept up to date) this. To get better at Swordsmanship for example, you go fight with a sword. If you fight with a different type of weapon, you don't get better at Swordsmanship, the appropriate skill is raised instead. You don't neccesarily have to kill anything either, so you can spar with your friends and gain skill. You could also practice on training dummies to raise combat skills. Anytime you were in combat you also had a chance to raise your Tactics skill, which gave you a slight advantage in any type of combat. Non-combat skills are raised by performing any of the associated actions.

Stats (Str, Dex, Int) were also raised (at a much slower rate than skills) simply by doing activities that made use of them. Ie, several methods of raising Strength included: melee combat, farming, lumberjacking.

This type of system does introduce it's own disadvantages however, in the form of 'macroing' - say a player wants to raise the Hiding skill, they simply set up a script or program that automatically hides and unhides them, and leave it running overnight.

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Original post by Kazgoroth As Kylotan observed, Ultima Online does (or did, I havn't kept up to date) this.

oops mustve overread that..

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Original post by Kazgoroth To get better at Swordsmanship for example, you go fight with a sword. If you fight with a different type of weapon, you don't get better at Swordsmanship, the appropriate skill is raised instead. You don't neccesarily have to kill anything either, so you can spar with your friends and gain skill. You could also practice on training dummies to raise combat skills. Anytime you were in combat you also had a chance to raise your Tactics skill, which gave you a slight advantage in any type of combat. Non-combat skills are raised by performing any of the associated actions.

Ah thats like in the elder scrolls.. god i hate that game :o
The system is nice though.. though very easy to abuse like you said.
It's not what I ment though.. With the system Ive got in my head youd still be saving up skill points to buy skills but there would be "dangerous" alternatives to get SP more quickly (or loose quickly if you fail..).
Like say you need 1000 skill points for a skill.. to grind the 1000 points youd need to slay 200 mobs at a rate of 5 SP per mob.. This would take some time. People who dont feel like grinding could take more adventurous routes to make the 1000 points.
Fighting others for it for instance (like 50 sp if you get a PVP kill.. but losing 50 if you die in PVP).
And other ways (wich I havent come up with yet :P).

There are always ways to exploit the system.. every MMO game has bots. There's not much you can do about it. Making the system based more on REAL skill then on stats and leveling should nerf the damage done by these bot programs..
A player who lets his bot do the SP collecting will get seriously WTFPWND by someone whos behind the steering wheel the whole time.

Tough topic...I've thought a lot on this subject.

I have a level 65 Shillien Elder (also a level 45 Warlock...and a level 20 dwarf :P) on Lineage II...I gave up last Christmas because I had to concentrate on other things.

But leveling up didn't interest me too much. I made friends, or wars were formed, in other words the players made the content - you can have adventures and drama as long as there are people (especially in Lineage II because most of them are power-hungry kids who are unable to reason or have independant thought).

I'd like to see some games that you can level up, but you are not aware of the level or amount of exp. I know this isn't exactly an alternative to a grind, but perhaps it would take focus off grinding.

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Original post by stevenmarky Tough topic...I've thought a lot on this subject. I have a level 65 Shillien Elder (also a level 45 Warlock...and a level 20 dwarf :P) on Lineage II...I gave up last Christmas because I had to concentrate on other things. But leveling up didn't interest me too much. I made friends, or wars were formed, in other words the players made the content - you can have adventures and drama as long as there are people (especially in Lineage II because most of them are power-hungry kids who are unable to reason or have independant thought). I'd like to see some games that you can level up, but you are not aware of the level or amount of exp. I know this isn't exactly an alternative to a grind, but perhaps it would take focus off grinding.

//off topic
What no Orc???? Theyre FTW :(
//off topic

That would make for some interessting gameplay. NO leveling. But like someone above me already said people like the fact they can say "HAh I PWn Yall n00bs Im da HIGHEST LVL playr" it helps enlarge their "e-penis" so to say.

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Original post by TheRealMcenzy That would make for some interessting gameplay. NO leveling. But like someone above me already said people like the fact they can say "HAh I PWn Yall n00bs Im da HIGHEST LVL playr" it helps enlarge their "e-penis" so to say.

Perhaps the players could be trained to measure thier success by an alternative method - a reputation system, or perhaps some kind of trophy system.