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Original post by Wavinator Funny enough, I have a hardcore gamer friend somewhat like that who was introduced to The Sims and Roller Coaster Tycoon through his girlfriends. He got hooked. (But I won't tell anybody [wink])

Funny, my roommate lost a girlfriend when he introduced her to The Sims.

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Original post by Telastyn As another mentioned, boys don't play with dollhouses.

Heh, unless those dollhouses are castles, undead crypts, sunken fortresses or orbital space colonies. [grin]

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I actually much prefered a game that came out recently... ah, Space Colony it was called. It was essentially the Sims [iiiinnnn sppppaaaaccceee] with a teeny bit of RPG thrown in. You couldn't make your characters, they were all pre-determined [and hilarious]. And you had a specific goal to complete per level [survive alien attack, explore area, mine stuff, build something] all the while keeping the sims happy, fed, rested, paid, safe from vampire aliens....

[smile] I played this and liked it more than The Sims. ("Doesn't ANYBODY wanna talk ta Tammy???"). What I found frustrating was that combat DOES NOT work while you're trying to manage all the timers for the people, which makes me think they should suspend during attacks (you don't care about feeding your gut when one eyed gorillas are busting down your door!)

I don't think Space Colony was all that popular, nor certainly as popular as The Sims although I think it was just as good. This could be a failure of marketing or any number of things, but I suspect that it wasn't "mundane" enough to attract Sims players.

(AARGGH stupid login)

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Original post by Wavinator But wouldn't you consider RPG players to be hardcore, too? I do take your point and think you're right, there's nothing to compete against but yourself in most of these people sims. But funny enough hardcore RPG and strategy gamers (where the game is management heavy) are used to mostly competing against themselves and the AI, rather than other players. Of course, most of the people sims don't even have AI to compete against.

You pretty much answered the question yourself there, I think. If not competing against people, the hardcore gamers will compete against the AI, and there's a clearly defined goal to aim for. In sim type games, you're not really competing as such - there may be smallish challenges along the way, but there's no real overall goal and there's no real opponent to compete with.

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Wow, I hadn't thought about GTA being a game with cross appeal because the game has so much negative stigma attached to it. When I mention GTA to many of the casual gamers I know they think it's some kind of serial killer simulation (they take this from the ads on TV and the news, I think). But it is VERY interesting to look at what crossover appeal it has.

As a counter example to your experience, everyone I know who's actually played one of the GTA games has enjoyed it. This includes hardcore, casual, and even non-gamers. It may be that the basic concept is off-putting to some, which may discourage casual gamers from making an initial purchase, but in most cases if you sit them in front of a computer and let them have a go themselves they'll find themselves having fun very quickly.

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Funny enough, I have a hardcore gamer friend somewhat like that who was introduced to The Sims and Roller Coaster Tycoon through his girlfriends. He got hooked. (But I won't tell anybody )

To some extent I'd agree that the gulf between the 'hardcore' games and 'casual' games is due to a certain closed-mindedness. People tend to go for games that they think they'll enjoy, and often use a rather narrow set of criterion for determining whether they do or not. An example of criterion for some hardcore gamers might be:

Blowing things up/killing things
Fantasy/sci fi setting
Falls into a favoured genre
Challenging AI or online play

That's not to say they won't enjoy games that fall outside these criterion - it's just that they rarely give them a chance. The 'casual' gamers are guilty of the same - they just use different criterion to decide whether they're interested or not. Perhaps this is the case with your friends regarding GTA.

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That 'focus on human interactions' is a key here. Since there's already generalizations flying around in the thread... when it comes to human relations, your typical "hardcore gamer" has about as much interest->experience->skill in them as you'd find in a clam. So obviously, something with strong focus on the aspect they have no interest in whatsoever and no real understanding of, will be "pointless" in their eyes and they will dislike being unable to understand "what it is all about" to the point of hating the game. ;P

Your right, that is a sweeping generalization. Insinuating people who don't like Social Simulations are socially incompetent is rather insulting, probably the reason for you posting anonymously.. >.>

I rather enjoyed Space Colony over The Sims mostly because the characters had more personality, so it was alot funner to play with them and watch their interactions. Caring for The Sims is alot like having Sea Monkey's, there nice to look at but it doesn't really get you anywhere. Social Interaction with the Sims's is alot less enjoyable mostly because interactions are pretty generic, they all speak the same non-sense ('simlish', still thinking sea-monkey's here). There is equal emphasis on Design and Decorating, since the Sim needs things to interact with to maintain his stats, job, and social interactions. The player can of course choose to buy a house, but he still has to decorate it.

Its nothing new that people often identify with the characters they create, so it would make sense that some people would place social interactions with greater emphasis (them personifying themselves with their character) on their Sim's development. It could be considered a way for the player to define and personify their Sim more towards themselves by gathering more friends towards their character, being the life of the party, or other social aspects that they enjoy and/or fail at. This could of course apply to every aspect of the sim's, from cleaning to decorating, or generally any game there is.

[Edited by - Gyrthok on January 28, 2005 10:30:18 AM]

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Original post by Wavinator Quote: Original post by Telastyn As another mentioned, boys don't play with dollhouses. Heh, unless those dollhouses are castles, undead crypts, sunken fortresses or orbital space colonies. [grin]

At least the stereotype is that girls "get" doll houses, and boys build fortresses out of whatever was available. I'd submit that boys tend to enjoy building/defeating the dollhouse [or playing with lego's] rather than playing with the dollhouse.

I love how this thread has made me a girl. Oh well, at least I apparently have social skills as well.

I will admit that this game would be more fun if you could start gang wars.

WEST SIDE!@!!!!!!!

Well, at least I read most of the first page...

Why do I hate the sims?
1: After you master the game, there is no point.
2: The characters are nothing like real people, but a lot like what the designer expects them to be. The game should be able to adapt more to me.
3: There is no three.

Oopse, guess you should replace "People" with "Hardcore Gamer", XD. Its not neccessarily that I interpreted it from "Some people who play games are hardcore" into "All people who play games are hardcore", more that not all hardcore gamers who hate the game would be socially incompetent. I might consider myself a hardcore gamer and may not like it to any great extent, but it doesn't mean i don't socialize well. ;D

Dunno, just seemed to come off rude to me, AP and all. Eh, maybe i am socially inept. Xp

Anyway, its true enough that some people can be incredibly shallow when it comes to which games they'll play, a large majority apparently being dazzled by flashy graphics and skeletal gameplay.. Kindof reminds me of super models.. >.>

now now, you've just offended all the supermodels that frequent GD.net =P~

I've gone trough all the spectrum, depending on time avaiability, from hardcore stategy, to twitch, to casual and quickie puzzle stuff.

The way i see it its mostly about the lack of goal, and the lack of a clear-cut progress indicator. There is no way of knowing how long it takes to "win"... mainly because you can't "win". For twitch,strategy and some puzzle gamers this is annoying.

On the other hand, those who do spend the time will find that: (liberally lifting from KingRuss' list)

1.- Once you master the game, the point is, as the expansion says: Livin' Large. That 8-story mansion with the pools and 6 girlfriends sounds good. When i played, i tried to make my character a playah. He turned out sort of like me instead. Which brings us to point 2
2.- The characters are not like what the designer expects them to be. They are shaped, instead, by what you make them do. There are some basic personalities, but they're really barebones, like "neat" and "outgoing". Most of the personality of your sims comes from how you play him/her.


Sims 2 fixes some of these issues: you can pick goals and work towards them. The character system is mind-numbingly flexible (i really mean that), and while you still choose from basic personalities (whats your sign?), there are more of them, and the final personality is even more influenced by real life.

About fantasy, i saw a neighborhood of aliens and millitary, that should cater to the ones who can't live without the fantasy bits.

Now im gonna get this fella to play his cards right. Rock the pagoda man!

The only real fun part about The Sims is making them do the Woohoo!
[wink]