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Competent Parties - For a contract to be valid, each side must have the capacity to enter into it. Most people and companies have sufficient legal competency. A drugged or mentally-impaired person has impaired capacity and chances are a court may not hold that person to the contract. Minors (e.g., usually those under eighteen) cannot, generally, enter into a binding contract without parental consent, unless it is for the necessities of life, such as food, clothing, or for student loan contracts.
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The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) requires that employers classify jobs as either exempt or non-exempt. Non-exempt employees are covered by FLSA rules and regulations, and exempt employees are not.
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Exempt positions are excluded from minimum wage, overtime regulations, and other rights and protections afforded non-exempt workers. Employers must pay a salary rather than an hourly wage for a position for it to be exempt.
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Exempt employees are generally expected to devote the number of hours necessary to complete their respective tasks, regardless of whether that requires 35 hours per week or 55 hours per week. Their compensation doesn't change based on actual hours expended. Exempt employees aren't paid extra for putting in more than 40 hours per week; they're paid for getting the job done.
The first one I understand. We know kids can't sign contracts and that even if their parents give consent there are limits on how long they can work. I am not sure what the others have to do with topic though.
Quote:Original post by Obscure ...even if their parents give consent there are limits on how long they can work...
Unless they're employed into an exempt position, as detailed above.
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Exempt positions are excluded from minimum wage, overtime regulations, and other rights and protections afforded non-exempt workers. Employers must pay a salary rather than an hourly wage for a position for it to be exempt.
I'm under 18. Causes so many trouble for me it isnt funny. Anyway, on everything i sign it has both my name/signature and my fathers (usually). This is legally binding.
If you've got a lawyer they should have pointed this out though.
Do not remove a fly from your friend's forehead with a hatchet.Chinese Proverb
Quote:Original post by Obscure ...even if their parents give consent there are limits on how long they can work...
Unless they're employed into an exempt position, as detailed above.
Ahhh I had a hunch that was what you were getting at. Think about it for a moment. A child is limited to working a maximum of 15 hours a week (as an example), This law is to prevent/protect them from working a job of between 15 - 40 hour per week, Yet it is somehow going to allow them to do a job of 40 - 80 hours a week?
It doesn't work that way. Those exemptions relate only to people who are actually allowed to work a 40 hour week in the first place. Children aren't exempt from being under age. Child protection laws will always take presence.
Even if the above were not the case (which it is) the extract you posted clearly states that such a position would have to pay a salary (which would need to be at least 40 h/w @ min wage). You aren't paying your staff a salary so you can't designate any positions (adults or minors) as exempt.
Alrighty. We know children can sign contracts with their parents' approval. With this taken care of, I have a powerful parachute in the event that one of them tries to legally combat me. If nothing else, I can make a contract with each of my "partners" who are under the age of eighteen that assigns their IP to me. In exchange, I would guarantee them something non-monetary- and non-transferrable: for instance, accredation in the game. No transfer of money, no employment, no minor protection laws. Correct?
::EDIT::
To clarify: there would be nowhere in the contract where they agreed to continue working for me. They would simply agree that anything they submit to the development forums, upload to the FTP, send to me, &c. would become my IP.
::EDIT::
However, if I intend to give my team members money, I need to find a parachute for if the government comes after me for overworking my underage cohorts. As Obscure stated, "Evil computer game mogul uses child slave labour to make his millions!" wouldn't be a very good way to get my foot inside the door. Also, because we are a virtual team, there's almost no chance of me legally employeeing my foreign members unless they get a green card. And at this stage in the game, it's a bit unfair to be having my 16 year old Finnish highschool students move to America. Not to mention that proposing such an idea would pretty much destroy my chances of getting parental consent.
So, for my underaged American friends, I can include a contract where financial recompense is added to the deal- as long as they get a work permit. However, if they sign this contract, they are then restricted to the underage labor laws. How exactly we would keep track of hours is unsure- but as Obscure stated, it would probably come down to the parents. At first, the thought came across my mind... "what if the parents lie about how many hours their child works?" But then, I realized that if the parent was responsible for watching their child's work time, then they would be responsible for "overworking" their child, right?
Any of my of-age American clients, which totals up to about 1/3 of my team, are able to sign the financial recompense agreement and be legally employeed to me.
As for my outsourced talents, I'm pretty much stuck with just accreditation and other non-monetary recompense until they get a green card. Hmm... That does make for quite an interesting problem.
Okay. So I'll take a step back now.
Let's say that I sign the contract with everyone that offers them accreditation in exchange for IP rights. Maybe some other stuff, too, like 10 years of free gameplay, extra gameplay privileges, and the like. So far, I'm clean, correct?
If so, then is it possible to modify the contract later to include financial recompense, so long as both parties agree (as if they would disagree to adding payment to their benefits)? If so, is it possible to include in the current contract a guarantee to revise the contract upon their eighteenth birthday, and/or upon obtaining a green card? Could I include a qualifier like: "effective upon legal employment status of the undersigned"?
Finally... it is legal for me to give money on a non-contractual basis, isn't it? Is the exchange of gifts illegal? If not, then couldn't I "repay" my team members on a non-contractual basis? Sure, it would be an issue of trust- and that's an issue that the law can't touch. And it would be illegal to have written anywhere on paper (or in any sort of legally binding agreement, for that matter) that I intend to repay these people with "gifts", because then they would be working under a guaranteed monetary recompense, which makes it a job. But so long as an explicit contractual agreement is never reached... I can still give "gifts", right?
Anyway, this is me just throwing out a bunch of ideas, because I don't want to leave my team hanging, and I also don't want to find myself in a pile of legal scite at any point in time. Please feel free to shoot them down as you see fit. If you have any ideas that would work, please let me know, too.
[Edited by - TheArtifex on December 19, 2004 1:18:37 PM]
Quote:Original post by TheArtifex Alrighty. We know children can sign contracts with their parents' approval. With this taken care of, I have a powerful parachute in the event that one of them tries to legally combat me. If nothing else, I can make a contract with each of my "partners" who are under the age of eighteen that assigns their IP to me. In exchange, I would guarantee them something non-monetary- and non-transferrable: for instance, accredation in the game. No transfer of money, no employment, no minor protection laws. Correct?
By the sounds of it this contract isnt very fair to the minors. Should you propose this to me with both of us knowing that the game is likely to make money i would straight out refuse and keep my intellectual property.
Quote: But then, I realized that if the parent was responsible for watching their child's work time, then they would be responsible for "overworking" their child, right?
To right, the parents will be responsible for how long their child works. Make sure you get a lawyer to handle the contracts so this is what happens if the child is found to have overworked. You're will be come down hard upon should the children be found to overwork, the parents wont because the children will be found to make the choice to work that long. The parents also stand to make little or no financial gain, therefore forcing the children into long hours of work would not be something they would do. Hopefully the courts will recognise this.
Quote: As for my outsourced talents, I'm pretty much stuck with just accreditation and other non-monetary recompense until they get a green card. Hmm... That does make for quite an interesting problem.
Yeah i ran into this problem a while back. Its near impossible to do anything legally and professionally with minors living in another country. One of the solutions i came up with was to have the minors operate their own business (note: the parents still have to sign all the documents). Your company then makes contracts with the business, not for employment but for joint venture like agreements. I never actually tested this idea so how well/if it works, i am not sure. Its worth checking out though.
Quote: If so, then is it possible to modify the contract later to include financial recompense, so long as both parties agree (as if they would disagree to adding payment to their benefits)?
The contracts can of course be modified, though its probably best to just create a new one, at a later time provided both parties agree and sign the contract.
Quote: If so, is it possible to include in the current contract a guarantee to revise the contract upon their eighteenth birthday, and/or upon obtaining a green card?
Yes this is possible. Remember you are allowed to place anything in a valid contract as long as it attempts to create legal relations between the two parties, isnt over something or wont lead to something illegal/unlawfull and that both parties give genuine consent.
Quote: Finally... it is legal for me to give money on a non-contractual basis, isn't it? Is the exchange of gifts illegal? If not, then couldn't I "repay" my team members on a non-contractual basis? Sure, it would be an issue of trust- and that's an issue that the law can't touch. And it would be illegal to have written anywhere on paper (or in any sort of legally binding agreement, for that matter) that I intend to repay these people with "gifts", because then they would be working under a guaranteed monetary recompense, which makes it a job. But so long as an explicit contractual agreement is never reached... I can still give "gifts", right?
The exact legallities of this no one on this forum can tell you. Speak with a lawyer. The same goes for everything i or anyone else has told you throughout this thread, check all of it with a lawyer in your state, or the state where you intent to setup your company. These are matters that cannot be resolved simply by posting over the internet and must be dealt with in a professional way should you wish to establish a professional business. (By the sounds of it this is what you want to do) I think thats where you need to go now, whilst we have given you an overview its time for the lawyers to give you the details.
Do not remove a fly from your friend's forehead with a hatchet.Chinese Proverb
All the suggestions you made above are just ways of masking what you are really doing. The law can and does ignore what a contract says you are doing and instead go by what is actually being done. Child labour laws were first introduced in the 19th century and a business man doubtless thought up the first loophole shortly afterwards. We have had over two hundred years of people devising loopholes and governments plugging them. You are very unlikely to come up with an original idea that hasn't already been thought of.
It is pointless to simply suggest other more elaborate "what ifs" as way of getting around the law. we have flagged child employment as one of the issues you need to be aware of. Now you need to go and discuss this issue with a lawyer.
Especially since there seems to be an extreme difference in opinions coming from kooktroop and obscure, I'll move on from the forums, and try to set up an appointment with a legal advisor.
What you might want to do is do something with their school, something like a youth apprenticeship. Also, don't give a preset amount of royalty. After they do something, then give them a percentage like .o1 percent. That way you avoid giving royalties too soon without them doing some work.
I think you should set your sites lower. Keep It Simple, Make IT Fun. 60,000 is a drop in the bucket when your talking about making a mmo type games. Sure you might be able to save some on salaries but there is still lots to be done. Sure you can make a mmo game. You could put that money in the bank, and draw nice interest to pay some people you need done.
Another thing is your team, used to working together? Another reason to start small is then you can build the story. You can have a character in the single player rpg roll over to your mmorpg.
There are other means of getting this game advertised. Have you drawn up a business plan? A game document? Doing this will help you get financing later on if need be and it would help to show to a publisher.
