Why is it that there seems to be a disproportionate amount of medieval type settings for games? By medieval, I mean truly medieval or medieval fantasy. I would include any game which includes swords, chainmail, goblins, spells, etc. Is it because so many developers draw from what they have seen before? Is it because their primary influence is other games, thus perpetuating the medieval genre? Now please don''t get me wrong, as many of you are perhaps developing another medieval fantasy, and it may very well be an excellent game. I myself am guilty of being channeled down this train of thought. I won''t accept the line of argument that the public demands it, so the developers provide it. Nor will I accept the argument that games are frequently fantasy, and fantasy games are medieval. Let me throw out some ideas, good or bad, that can provide ideas how to step outside of the medieval box, and think differently. I enjoy traveling, going on road trips, exploring, doing a little bit of mountaineering and canyoneering, and photographing the landscape. In order to do this, I read and research a lot. I''m constantly looking for the next great place, learning about the history and so forth. As a result, my mind is filled with imagery, tidbits of lore and such that is fascinating, yet distinctly not medieval. Ponder these ideas. Each could be set in our own past, or the concepts could be transplanted to a new world. The wild west scenario, complete with outlaws, gunslingers, gold and silver mines, steam locomotives, saloons, cantinas and cactus. Who''s to say we couldn''t take this vision to another world and have a group of goblins which come down from the hills every night and raid town? Fantasy, yet not medieval. The Anasazi and their mysterious culture: The Anasazi were an ancient race that lived in the four corners area of North America about 1000 years ago and then mysteriously vanished. They left behind cliff dwellings, a road system despite no wheeled vehicles, and hints of an interesting religion, including shamans... Transplant the technology and flavor of the American Civil War to another planet, complete with southern style plantations, and interject some laser-pistol toting alien race into the mix, and you have a very interesting conflict indeed.

The way I see it, swords are shiny, sharp, and fun to slice ppl guts with. That might be one reason why so many games are medieval. Killing your opponent the goriest with a sword instead of using a hi-tech silent sniper gun is way much more fun and enjoyable. To me it is.

Just a couple of notes, bishop.
1.)You can''t say that people just make midieval games for the hell of it. They DO Make them because lots of people buy them.
2.)The Anasazi aren''t *THAT* much of a mystery anymore. I remember reading an article that somewhat dispensed the great disappearance myth. It pretty much explained that after a while, the anasazi had farmed-out the nearby land and over-tapped its natural resources, the land couldn''t support them, so they became nomadic once again, slowly spreading out.
3.)I don''t know why, but the ''civil war'' and ''wild west'' theme of yours reminds me of a really kewl PnP RPG called Deadlands. It basically states that the civil war never ended, and add the fact that a new type of stone was discovered, which brought spirits, and magic, and well....monsters into the picture.

I do understand what you are saying about disproportionate levels of genres in games. But i think that it is spread out more over type, than in general.
FPS->Futuristic
RTS->Futuristic
RPG->Midieval

This RtS-Babble© has been brought to you by:
-Run_The_Shadows
-Run_The_Shadows@excite.com

quote: Original post by Run_The_Shadows


2.)The Anasazi aren''t *THAT* much of a mystery anymore. I remember reading an article that somewhat dispensed the great disappearance myth. It pretty much explained that after a while, the anasazi had farmed-out the nearby land and over-tapped its natural resources, the land couldn''t support them, so they became nomadic once again, slowly spreading out.

Regarding the Anasazi, I was simply presenting them as an example where inspiration can be drawn from (i.e. lesser known historical cultures). As for their mystery, new evidence shows there was some cannibalistic practices, and their road system is still not understood. You are correct in pointing out the probable reason for their disappearance, but that is not the aspect I was indicating as mysterious.

My main point is to draw inspiration from numerous sources, whether it be exploring, reading, or whatever.

There is nothing wrong with medieval fantasy games (they can be quite interesting), it''s just that so many other ideas could also be developed.

I think people come up with ideas based on their experiences. I was at a very awesome E3 lecture given by designer Ernest Adams (the secret to eternal product life I think was the title) where he criticized the general lack of designer originality and exhorted folks to get alternate experiences. Read books you''d never normally to read. Go places you wouldn''t normally go. New experiences are food for the muse!

I raised this issue specifically with medieval RPGs a few months back if you want to check it out.

I agree with RTS BTW, it''s more spread out over genre. I think it has a lot to do with UI: FPS games don''t seem to support swordplay all that well, whereas the typical iso view doesn''t support gunplay as well. I think the issue with RTS games has to do with who they play to, and being able to recognize the difference between tanks and airplanes easier than dragons and wyverns.

In general, I''d love to see more originality. But it''s a lot more work than grabbing from Tolkein and D&D.

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Just waiting for the mothership...

quote: Original post by bishop_pass

Why is it that there seems to be a disproportionate amount of medieval type settings for games? By medieval, I mean truly medieval or medieval fantasy. I would include any game which includes swords, chainmail, goblins, spells, etc.

My guess is because it is such fertile ground for creative outlet. In the day when kings were real kings, dragons were real dragons and helpless buxom maidens were real helpless buxom maidens...

quote:
Is it because so many developers draw from what they have seen before? Is it because their primary influence is other games, thus perpetuating the medieval genre?

...snip...

The wild west scenario, complete with outlaws, gunslingers, gold and silver mines, steam locomotives, saloons, cantinas and cactus. Who''s to say we couldn''t take this vision to another world and have a group of goblins which come down from the hills every night and raid town? Fantasy, yet not medieval.

Transplant the technology and flavor of the American Civil War to another planet, complete with southern style plantations, and interject some laser-pistol toting alien race into the mix, and you have a very interesting conflict indeed.

Take one of your previous statements. Is it because their primary influence is other games, thus perpetuating the medieval genre? The "laser-pistol toting alien race" is evidence of common sci-fi influence over you of what aliens should be like, thus perpetuating the idea that aliens are highly intelligent and wanting to wipe the human race from existence. Or the goblins that raid the town during nightfall. Are goblins destined to be stereotyped forever as nasty little creatures that raid towns at night?


Steve 'Sly' Williams
Tools Developer
Krome Studios

The first person perspective can lend itself to swordplay quite well IMO (Thief). As for RTS''s I usually don''t think of futuristic personally. I always liked Warcraft & Myth: The Fallen Lords better than Starcraft for instance.

I agree w/ you all. In a story based game, it is just plain damned unfair to the audience to not come up w/ a detailed & original time/setting that a game is set in. To just start putting what you think the player is familiar w/ into the game and assume the player will figure it out where it fits in just makes a story-based game incomplete.





""You see... I'm not crazy... you see?!? Nazrix believes me!" --Wavinator

Nazrix, the yet-to-be-determined-cool half-liberitarian half-not-nihilistic-anymore-but-plain-confused messiah
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

quote: Original post by Wavinator

Read books you''d never normally to read. Go places you wouldn''t normally go. New experiences are food for the muse!

Ah, Wavinator, so true.

Many years ago I used to read mostly sci-fi and fantasy. Now I read many genres of fiction, including medical thrillers, mystery-suspense, and adventure.

In addition, my library has expanded to include books on aircraft, aircraft systems, mountaineering, travel, hiking, photo essay, quantum physics, antiques, classic cars, petroglyphs, computer science, AI, stock market analysis, astronomy, western art, the High Sierra, cooking, math, medicine, dinosaurs...

Among some of my favorite authors, including sci-fi, are Jack Vance, David Brin, Patricia Cornwell, Tess Gerritsen, Michael Palmer, John Sandford, Dennis Lehane, Dean Koontz, Michael Crichton, Dan Simmons, Clive Cussler, Orson Scott Card, Harry Turtledove, Vernor Vinge, Kim Stanley Robinson...

Some of the sci fi and fantasy I used to read a long time ago included Arthur Clarke, Robert Heinlien, Raymond Feist, Terry Brooks, Tolkien...

In another post, I specifically said, go into the bookstore and go to the sections you don''t normally go and start perusing the books.

Get out a map and find a place you haven''t been and drive there. Let your mind wander while you drive. Think, digest, solve and think some more.

About eight years ago I took up climbing (I don''t climb much anymore) and it opened my eyes up to new places to discover and explore. Because of climbing I took up outdoor photography, which invited me to explore more places, discover new and fascinating places, high mountain peaks, slot canyons, ancient petroglyphs, beautiful desert panoramas...

The more you do, the more you learn, the easier it is to learn more, and put it all together. Let your mind get inspired.

- Uh, I think -not much- of RPG games. RTS games too. I want my thrills NOW.
~
(There''s no real nice way to say this, but, uh, people who reeaally get into RPG''s tend to be a- -uh, a bit, shall we say, on the dull side. It takes a lot of time to get involved, and that''s time you lose for going out and drinking and wrecking your car and spending with the girlfriend (or boyfriend), or their sister/brother. Honest to God, the few people I''ve known that were deeply into RPG''s just weren''t real fun at parties. When they got invited. Ugly, but true.)
~
- As to why medieval settings are so popular, it''s because of all the different weapons. Also there actually were people killed for practicing "wizardry", so you can -without stretching one''s imagination too far- include majic spells as weapons also.
~
- As to why you need so many weapons, it''s because if you have a piss-poor game concept, you have to make it challenging somehow. If you impose the restriction of making a game with only 1 (one) weapon, most RPS''s start sinking fast.
!
- I also bought System Shock 2 a couple weeks ago, because it was cheap and I saw/heard many people say that it is a good game, but I haven''t had time to try it yet. Looks like it''s got a lotta weapons.....(frowning) - Lubb

quote: Original post by Lubb
(There's no real nice way to say this, but, uh, people who reeaally get into RPG's tend to be a- -uh, a bit, shall we say, on the dull side.

Man, Lubb, where do you live? Illinois? You know, it's almost worth a road trip just to prove you wrong. I mean, c'mon, you've never met RPG players who were cool??? Dude, you've got to meet more people!!!

BTW, you're I think talking about an introvert extrovert difference. Introverts maybe seem to tend towards deep, complex games, extroverts want more quick, superficial, get in/get out games.

So how do you classify somebody who's into both game types?!?! (Uh, like me!)

quote:
- As to why you need so many weapons, it's because if you have a piss-poor game concept, you have to make it challenging somehow. If you impose the restriction of making a game with only 1 (one) weapon, most RPS's start sinking fast.

True. True.

quote:
- I also bought System Shock 2 a couple weeks ago, because it was cheap and I saw/heard many people say that it is a good game, but I haven't had time to try it yet. Looks like it's got a lotta weapons.....(frowning) - Lubb

Okay, but you're contradicting yourself now. You wouldn't happen to want complexity in your game, now, would you?! Careful, you wouldn't want to be considered dull now, would you?!?!


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Just waiting for the mothership...

Edited by - Wavinator on October 19, 2000 3:36:48 PM