Hi, I have a basic question. Every company I have been offerred a job from has generally given me a list of terms and condition along with an offer letter. After that I get to choose whether I accept or reject it. My question is - is it common in the game industry to expect you to join and then show you a list of terms and conditions ? I ask this because thats the situation I currently am in. I don't want to be surprised by the terms and conditions. I have been told that its industry standard terms with slight variations. Nevertheless I would like to see it else I am thinking of refusing the offer because otherwise it looks like I am being compelled to accept the conditions whatever it may be even if its a very standard and straightforward condition. I am sure they mean well but I am paranoid in such cases. What would you guys suggest I do in such a scenario. I requested them for it. They politely refused to show it saying once you accept the offer we will show it. What I would like to know is why not show it to the potential employee ? Is this some kind of a business strategy ? Thanks

Hi Crack Man,

You must be very talented if you are getting job offers up the ying yang, but anyway to answer your question, you are paranoid. If you keep turning down jobs then:

#1) you won't be able to buy crack, because you won't have the money.
#2) their won't be anymore jobs left because your waiting for something better to come around.

I say take a job, if something better comes around, quit and take the other job. If a company requires you to sign NDA's or require that anything created at work is their intellectual property not yours, then you just have to live with it. Good Luck, and take what you can get.

If the contract states that you are bound by the terms and conditions then they should provide you with a copy. I would never work for a company that expected me to be bound by conditions I had not been given a copy of. In fact I am pretty sure that they are legally required to provide the terms and conditions (but I am not a alwyer so don't quote me on that).

Having said that taking the job, THEN getting the terms has certain advantages. You are in the door, working and earning money and replacing you will be a bit of a pain. If they give you the terms you can wait a week and come back to them and start arguing over the ones you REALLY don't like. Because you are in and working they are more likely to agree changes as it saves them going back to find someone else.

Hi,

As far as #1 goes - I already have a job. The grass always looks greener on the other side.

As far as the IP goes I dont care. They can keep whatever I create until I work for them. NDA's exist even in the world of non-game industry. Neither are they a new thing or a concern.

Its easy to say "take what you can get." I have followed that before to know firsthand that its not a very good idea.

Thanks.

Quote:

Original post by Obscure If the contract states that you are bound by the terms and conditions then they should provide you with a copy. I would never work for a company that expected me to be bound by conditions I had not been given a copy of. In fact I am pretty sure that they are legally required to provide the terms and conditions (but I am not a alwyer so don't quote me on that). Having said that taking the job, THEN getting the terms has certain advantages. You are in the door, working and earning money and replacing you will be a bit of a pain. If they give you the terms you can wait a week and come back to them and start arguing over the ones you REALLY don't like. Because you are in and working they are more likely to agree changes as it saves them going back to find someone else.

So what you are saying is that there is an advantage here ? I didn't see it that way. Yes replacing a person is a real pain. Not because of unions, but because the whole cycle of training has to be redone. Surely they would think twice if they wanted to replace someone. But at the same time surely there is no harm in being a little transparent ?

I have heard from people that the company is good. They seem to have a good reputation. I just dont want to regret after making my choice.

This just smells dodgy to me.

Presumably when you accept the position you have to sign something saying you accept terms and conditions - this is the case with every job I've ever had. Yet you don't know what those conditions are?

My terms and conditions have usually been the formal specification of things like:

Pay
Weekly hours
Notice periods
Holiday entitlement
Medical coverage / benefits
etc, etc.

Without a formal statement of these that you have agreed to and signed, they could do anything (sorry, verbal contracts don't hold).

I would be very wary of ever accepting a position that didn't allow me to see what terms and conditions I would be working under.

Sorry for the pessimism.
Jim.

Edit : should add my experiences are not with gamedev companies, but they same reasoning still applies.

Quote:

Original post by JimPrice This just smells dodgy to me. Presumably when you accept the position you have to sign something saying you accept terms and conditions - this is the case with every job I've ever had. Yet you don't know what those conditions are?

No, I dont have a copy of the terms and conditions with me, never received it and company politely refused to show it.

Quote:

Original post by JimPrice My terms and conditions have usually been the formal specification of things like: Pay Weekly hours Notice periods Holiday entitlement Medical coverage / benefits etc, etc.

Its the etc etc that I really am interested to see. My current ad previous co's gave me a set of conditions and terms and then asked me to think over it and decide if they are acceptable or not. It was either accept the conditions or refuse it if not acceptable.

Quote:

Original post by JimPrice Without a formal statement of these that you have agreed to and signed, they could do anything (sorry, verbal contracts don't hold).

I have already been stung that way. Once bitten twice shy. I dont beleive anything thats just word of mouth anymore.

Quote:

Original post by JimPrice I would be very wary of ever accepting a position that didn't allow me to see what terms and conditions I would be working under. Sorry for the pessimism. Edit : should add my experiences are not with gamedev companies, but they same reasoning still applies.

That would explain my paranoia is not foolish. My experience in general with gamedev companies haven't been good. But in the software industry in general its been very good and extremely frutiful.

Quote:

Original post by CRACK123 No, I dont have a copy of the terms and conditions with me, never received it and company politely refused to show it.

You just have to ask yourself "Why would they refuse to show them to me if they have nothing to hide"

You _cannot_ sign your life away to a contract that you have not seen. Whilst it is probably not illegal to ask you to do that, it is just stupid to expect someone to go along with that.

Who knows what is in their terms and condition. Could be something as simple as you are expect to work 10% overtime evey week to improve your game, or, something much less acceptable, like you will accept a pay decrease if the game you are working on scores less than 90% in _all_ games mags.

Dont do it. Ask them again, then tell them you will refuse the position if they do not show it to you. Let some other gullible fool take the wrap instead.

Btw, i have been offered a few game dev jobs, and _all_ companies showed me their terms and conditions before asking me to sign on the dotted line

Spree

> I requested them for it. They politely refused to show it saying
> once you accept the offer we will show it.

That's piecewise negotiation. If you say 'yes' or quit your day job, then the power relationship has reversed in their favor. I doubt you can negotiate your position upward once you approve the position they are offering and you agreed to.

> As far as #1 goes - I already have a job.

That's your fallback position if you don't like the offer; something to remember.

You should tell them you would seriously consider their complete offer in its entirety, as you should in any contract negotiation.

-cb

Hi,

I finally managed to get the Terms and conditions. It has a non compete clause which is not a valid clause as per the Supreme Court of my Country. Thus I think I made the right choice by demanding for it without leaving my current job.

Thanks