Gordon Freeman may have been a scientist, but he still had a gun. I''ve never seen science or research done as a game mechanic. I have scene science used as a reward mechanic: you spend so many points, and get a new tech, or a new improvement. Do you think it would be possible to make the process of scientific research and experimentation gameplay itself? It would seem that, if so, you''d have to forshorten and gloss over some of the long, boring details that make up research. The one way I see of doing this is implementing it like a perception system in an RPG (the more perceptive you are, the more details you notice). The idea would be, the higher your knowledge, the more you could figure out how something worked (like flight, or gravity, or whatever). But to make this interesting, you''d have to somehow make tradeoffs and decisions. I don''t know what interesting ones you could make, though. Ideas welcome, thanks! -------------------- Just waiting for the mothership...

Sorry to say this, and I know its an idea thats never been done but the reason why its never been done is because it would be one of the worst games ever. If I wanted to do science stuff I would whip out my Mr Science lab kit and make up some crazy potions.

What makes the Mr. Science Labkit fun?

BTW, what's the difference between creating a new spell from scratch using some reagents, and creating a new psychoactive drug, or designer gene. Both could be interesting, in the right context, but you have to use your imagination to make the gameplay "sexy." Otherwise you're just spinning centrifuges and running mice through mazes.

Contemplate this: We regularly explore and experiment in games. It's all just physically based. Can this be applied to science (especially if you make it __LIFE AND DEATH!!!!__ )

Just wondering...

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Just waiting for the mothership...

Edited by - Wavinator on October 16, 2000 10:10:36 PM

an interesting idea.. it''d take alot of work to make an enjoyable game based around it, though. definitely worth thinking about, in my opinion.. i can''t really think of much off the top of my head.. lemme think about it a bit and get back to you..

------------------------
IUnknown *pUnkOuter

"Try the best you can
try the best you can
the best you can is good enough"
--Radiohead

cough, cough, *brushing a dusty book*
Once upon a time, there was a game where the main activity was ...research ! It was magical research, but research nonetheless. You had to test potions, ingredients, mix them, look for new ones, find and exchange formulas, learn the effects of such and such regeants, etc. You then basically created spells, and then could go on an adventure mode where you would test all your nifty stuff . Of course, my memory is lacking to tell you the name, but _it has been done_

What''s so fun about research ? Well ... I couldn''t really say it in a concise and clear way, but they say that Scorpios like to see the inner meaning of things, and, well, that''s true. I can spend ages reading books on some topic for some strange reason, because suddenly I feel like I am exploring some unknown continent, dicovering the source of some mysterious river ... whatever.
How can you make that interesting ? By making this a plot based thing, most probably. By giving flavor to the task, having bells and whistles.
what do I mean ? Well, quite simply, take the classic tech tree abomination. I mean ... if only there was such a thing, maybe our scientists could concentrate on the specific areas they need to reach Warp Drive engines technology ?
Instead of having this weird system where "pick the next discovery", have choices made of pseudo science buzzwords ("so, are we gonna concentrate on this fascinating property of tachyon fields, or are we concentrate on the specifics of ionised particles systems ?" ie ... shield technology or plasma weapons ? ) Of course I am making that up, but I think you''d agree that with a bit more thinking, we COULD do something actually worth it. Now making a WHOLE game aboutit is another story ... but at least, we could have something much deeper than a tech tree. We could actually make this drive a story, or the other way around ? So you discover this new technology, and suddenly you get contacted by an alien species : "at last little humans, you reach a level of technology sufficient for us to communicate..."

ah well, more thinking later

youpla :-P

I don''t think you could make it reallistic science, because trying to figure out all the rules to apply to a game would be impossible only for the fact that real scientists haven''t figured out all the rules in real life. I like the idea of mixing reagants to try to make your own potions though. Ultima IV was sortof like that, you had a spell book, a certain number of base reagants, and each spell had it''s recipe made of those reagants in the book. Dino Crisis also had something along this line, you could mix different items and see what you got out of it, like mix poison and dart and you got a poison dart, mix anitidote with regular health pack and you got a health pack that cured poison. It was really limited though.
One aspect of science that you could really simulate is Physics, i.e. launching a rocket to another planet, like from earth to mars. This would also include secondary plans incase the rocket runs into an asteroid field or something.
As for chemistry, I don''t know if that could really be done to the extent that you seem to be indicating. It would take a lot of forthought on your part to figure out what various combinations should do, and then do that for how every many combinations there are (a lot, whatever it is. enough to give you carpal tunnel).
Have you ever seen an old Martin Short/Dennis Quade movie The Incredibal Journey? I think it''s also a book by Joules Verne. It''s about a guy who makes this tiny submarine, shrinks himself down to speck-of-dust size, and then is injected into the blood stream of a person. you could do something similar, go in, destroy artery blockage, fight of disease, release medicine...well, I guess that would lend more to a shooter.

Bowowow yipeeyo yipeeyay

quote: Original post by capn_midnight

As for chemistry, I don't know if that could really be done to the extent that you seem to be indicating. It would take a lot of forthought on your part to figure out what various combinations should do, and then do that for how every many combinations there are (a lot, whatever it is. enough to give you carpal tunnel).
Have you ever seen an old Martin Short/Dennis Quade movie The Incredibal Journey? I think it's also a book by Joules Verne. It's about a guy who makes this tiny submarine, shrinks himself down to speck-of-dust size, and then is injected into the blood stream of a person. you could do something similar, go in, destroy artery blockage, fight of disease, release medicine...well, I guess that would lend more to a shooter.

I REALLY hope chemistry as a game vehicle is plausible because I am designing one right now. It's a browser-based VRML multiplayer that is aimed at high school kids taking chemistry. We are developing 6 themed worlds that cover the curriculum covered by most schools.

They use their chemistry knowledge to get through the RPG games, or pick up new information along the way. We use a bunch of MacGyver-type situations to make it exciting and practical. Cross your fingers for us, please.

By the way, the martin Short movie was "Innerspace" and the movie from the 60's was "Fantastic Voyage". I think Isaac Asimov wrote the book. Both ggod flicks though.

--KOG


Edited by - KOG on October 19, 2000 12:37:44 PM

Some of the aspects which might make science research interesting in a game could be:

Perception ability.

Time and money spent on research.

Buying the correct or quality test equipment as opposed to the lesser instruments.

Avoiding laboratory mishaps (these can be dangerous).

Interesting ''workstation'' graphics displaying energy fields, etc.

Stealthy opponents stealing your research.

Just some ideas, anyway.

Breed Pokemon.

KOG : hey That''s the perfect example you are giving just there ! How could I forget about my hero MacGyver ?!
I mean, they made a whole *serie* of a guy using his l33t skills in Chemistry, Physics and other scientific areas to get out of the most dangerous situations.
Now of course, the point here was to make the whole "learning science" part interesting. But I think your example show us what is funny : it''s the practice !
For one I absolutely enjoyed every hour I spent in Chemistry, even more when I repeated. I remember an excellent experiment, where you mix NaOH and HCl (chlorhydric acid and whatever the name is in english ...) to obtain ...something that our teacher didnt tell us. Right, but the trick was, at the end of the practical, she looked at us, and drank the test tube bottoms up ! With the damn base and acid in it! And then looking at us : "if you have done your work properly, you do the same". Me and my friend having played for the last two hours instead of doing the job properly, my friend began to worry a little bit, and so, I drank the damn thing, and it was salt water (NaOH + HCl -> NaCl + H2O ...)

What I am trying to say here, is that this single experiment, that we knew from the lecture, got burnt into my memory just because of this single practical. I would probably have erased it from my memory otherwise.
If you do this in a game, it would probably be the same. Give us practical stuff. Use powders and potions, buttons to press, switches to use, lots of apparel, and real interaction, and you''d get something much more of a toy rather than a scientific simulator.
Imagine if you had something where you can combine particles like in a LEGO game, and you''d test your results. You could do that in a magic system / alchemy system. Imagine hundreds of alchemist players in a MMORPG, making experiments, sharing their knowledge, etc...
What you need is make the whole thing give you real feedback. Not just "oh, you mix A and B and get potion AB", but something like a graphic interface, where A and B mix, change into a cool colour, or mixing B and C jsut blow up your whole lab (that could happen in the old game I mentioned above).

Know as I said above, research in general is realy just an extension of this principle. you could have teams of scientists that you just make concentrate on this or that area of research. r some guy with an idea would ask you to research something specific. You would have the responsibility of choosing the practice of your scientists. Can we use animal experiments ? can we use corpses (how would have Medicine advanced without it?) ? How far can we go ? You could have rebel scientist, you could have a guy sabotaging your work because he disagree with your goals, or your ways (imagine Einstein sabotaging the nuclear bomb, like in one of Sliders episodes ...)
I think this would make the whole "choose the next research topic" a whole new thing, rather than being a "click and wait until the guys come up with the new invention".
Plus, if you look at reality, a *lot* of invention were discovered by mistake, chance, etc. "Oh, look what happen when I left this leaf of AgCl in the sunlight ..." (lo and behold, photography was born).

I mean, if you start to make a bit of *cough cough* RESEARCH *cough* on ANY topic, you will start to come up with interesting ideas. My belief is that anything can be interesting if it''s presented with passion, and under the right angle. I mean, what''s funnier, play Russian roulette with your chemistry teacher that you can drink some weird potion you just made ? Or read in a book that NaOH mixed in the correct proportion with HCl can create a nonlethal solution of salt water ? Mmm ?

don''t just brush off an idea because you assume it''s going to boring, or "it''s not gonna sell". When someone do it properly, you''ll feel even more stupid than if you had tried just a little bit.

youpla :-P