Quote:Original post by s_p_oneil Call BS all you want. Not all open source projects are well-documented (I'm not referring to just the mainstream ones), and you can't claim they are without being an expert on all of them. Even if you're working with a mature tool, you often need a plugin or a complementary product that is not mature.
Of course they're not, but every one anybody has to use is.
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Closed source drivers are buggy drivers. They are pissed upon by the majority of the kernel people for technical reasons, not religious ones, though there are some that do for both.
I call BS to this. We found and had to fix a few bugs in the open source Linux drivers for the 3Com 3C905x cards. While it was very nice that we were able to fix them in our shipping product without waiting for someone to provide a fix, the same bugs did not show up in 3Com's Windows driver. Not all closed source drivers are crappy or buggy, and not all open source drivers are good.
One anecdotal example to the contrary does not affect the rule in the least.
The fact is, the linux-kernel people can't do their job with binary modules screwing around with things because they can't fix binary modules.
You have a bug in a 3com driver, and you fixed it. Excellent. Now nobody has this bug anymore. Also, you seem to be arguing that nobody seriously thinks linux is better than BSD, and yet you ship a product running linux rather than BSD. hmmm.
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The Linux license should not force them to create a custom build of the kernel to get around the GPL to protect their trade secrets.
It doesn't.
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Linux CREATED the open source community. The BSDs just sat there. They were cast by the wayside for very good reasons. The biggest being: they weren't doing anything.
Once again I call BS. The open source community was alive and well long before Linux was started. Linus started working on Linux in 1991. The GNU project started in 1984. Without the GNU suite of products already in place, Linus's fledgeling OS would have taken a lot longer to get off the ground. So it was really the other way around. The open source community created Linux.
And what would GNU be without linux? Still just a little addon to the other unices that would have died would along with them, had linux not sparked a renaissance.
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Quote: Let your friend know that BSD IS dead. Except for Apple.
How many times can I call BS in one post? I believe that BSD is being installed and used in more systems than Linux today. Most of that is in embedded systems like mobile phones, but that doesn't make it any less true. In the business world, BSD is generally considered to be faster, more stable, more secure, and more free (i.e. less restrictive licensing).
You can only make that claim if you count all code containing copied BSD code as BSD. By that logic, Linux is BSD.
and your "in the business world" statement does not lend any credibility to your argument because it's just a restatement of your opinion with the words "in the business world" tacked onto the front.
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I think we'd be better off if it did reverse itself because then we wouldn't have to recompile the kernel to install the nVidia drivers.
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I don't see a problem with a mixture, but is there that much of a need for development of an integrated documentation system over and beyond what info provides?
An "integrated documentation system" in the windows world is basically HTML files and a contents index. Displaying that same data in the man or info shells should be trivial. Doing the inverse - displaying infopages in a web browser - isn't quite as easy.
Pragmatism suggests that the solution is a no-brainer.
Konquerer can display man and info pages perfectly (just type man:fopen in the url bar to get the man page of fopen).
"THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS REPORT IS CLASSIFIED; DO NOT GO TO FOX NEWS TO READ OR OBTAIN A COPY." , the pentagon
Not all closed source drivers are necessarily bad. I've been generally happy with the proprietary nvidia drivers, although recently I've had troubles that weren't fixed for some time. I had to install an older glx package to get the newer nvidia drivers to work with games like Frozen Bubble and Tuxracer, even though I never have a problem with Quake 3 running. Why doesn't the newer glx package work? Beats me, but I spent way too long trying to get it working. Having them open source would probably have gone a long way to getting that resolved by now.
The open drivers, on the other hand, don't provide hardware acceleration. This is more the fault of the closed architecture than the fact that the drivers are open. So when one says that all open drivers aren't necessarily good, that's because new drivers have to be developed. Open source works best when you get more people working on it, and releasing sooner rather than later helps increase the numbers faster. Being able to fix a problem you found helps not only you with your hardware but also everyone else.
As for sound, I've been pretty happy with my SB Live! Value, and as I understand it, the SB Audigy is fairly well supported (although I wouldn't know personally). I don't have any other sound cards besides Live! and I know a lot of older cards should be supported. Getting them supported might be a hassle in some cases, so yes, getting improved sound support should be a goal.
Similarly with video cards. ATI's support pales in comparison to nvidia's. While some people have their ATI cards working just fine, just try to get your newest laptop an ATI driver. ATI tells you to go to the manufacturer, the manufacturer will tell you to go to ATI. I haven't heard about any similar problems with Nvidia's mobile offerings so I can't comment on them. In any case, driver installation on Linux is different than on Windows. With Windows, you just run an executable. With Linux, you need to be a sys admin and mess with the kernel, which turns off a lot of people already afraid of the complexities of Windows, let alone Linux.
And neither company is going to open their drivers anytime soon, partly due to trade secrets, but partly due to NDAs and proprietary licenses used. Closed source can be as viral as the GPL in this regard.
For most Linux users, having the open drivers aren't a problem because they don't need acceleration. Still, us gamers need good hardware that works in Linux. They exist, so this can't really be seen as that much of an obstacle.
The small market share is definitely a problem, and I believe that is improving.
Documentation is a huge problem with Gnu/Linux. It isn't consistent from one app to another (what is it like in BSD?). Some are heavily documented, and some are barely documented, if that. Some use man pages, others use info, and still others have their own help system, such as GnuCash and OpenOffice.org. This is an area that is also being improved thanks to orgs like TLDP.
Also, the fact that Linux doesn't usually come preinstalled is a problem. For most non-technical users, their machines comes preinstalled with Windows. If something goes wrong, they use a CD to reimage it back to new. They don't need to install from scratch and get drivers installed. Sit someone new to computers with an OEM of Windows and tell them to install. Click next, enter time, are you sure you want to install driver A, etc. Then tell them they need to install updates. They need to install antivirus software. They need to configure the system for email. It is overwhelming. The installation is not all that much different from Linux installs, especially with Mandrake and Fedora's installers, and yet, it is perceived that Windows is leaps and bounds easier than Linux.
It can't be ease of use, since KDE and Gnome already mimic Windows Explorer enough for most users to be familiar with it. My girlfriend has quickly gotten used to figuring out how to open Firefox on my machine when checking her email, and I'm using fluxbox, which is completely different to what she is used to! And a web browser is a web browser. A text editor is a text editor. An IM client is an IM client. A word processor is a word processor. An audio player is an audio player.
So I think the difficulty and perceived complexity comes from installation. Most people don't have to worry about installing Windows, so they never see how complex it can actually be. Knoppix and other Live CDs are great in this regard because people can see a fully working system without going through complex setup.
So just getting Linux installed is an obstacle to adoption of Linux as any platform, let alone a gaming one.
-------------------------GBGames' Blog: An Indie Game Developer's Somewhat Interesting ThoughtsStaff Reviewer for Game Tunnel
Quote:Original post by RPTD this is rather strange as i am running ATI on a 1024x800. UT2004 worked well and even Doom3 worked nearly as quick as under windows.
what kernel have you in use? have you compiled the ATI kernel module or used a predefined one? what does 'glxinfo | grep direct' say?
I envy thee.
I think I got the module as a binary (not sure tho, I remember compiling something). I installed the Linux drivers in the early summer so I can't remember exactly. The version is 3.7.6. I know there are newer versions out there but it seems that they do not have anything new to offer (some people said that they're just slower..)
And, yes, I do have direct rendering enabled. What ATI card do you have? I have a Radeon 9800 Pro 128 megs. Maybe I should try the newer drivers..
I think I got the module as a binary (not sure tho, I remember compiling something). I installed the Linux drivers in the early summer so I can't remember exactly. The version is 3.7.6. I know there are newer versions out there but it seems that they do not have anything new to offer (some people said that they're just slower..)
And, yes, I do have direct rendering enabled. What ATI card do you have? I have a Radeon 9800 Pro 128 megs. Maybe I should try the newer drivers..
i've got a Radeon 9600 64MB (or so, not sure if 64 or more).
i donno what exact version of the driver i have in use but it is an older one. i have not compiled the newest driver so far as i have been too lazy ^_^.
i would trying a new kernel round 2.6.9 and the newest driver of them. you need to compile the driver yourself but it is not difficult. you get a stupid RPM package if you fetch the driver so either install it if you are (unlucky) owner of an RPM based linux or else extract it to '/lib/modules/fglrx'. for this just do this:
the last two lines copy the files to /lib/modules (as root). you tthen compile and install it with
cd /lib/modules/fglrx/build_modsh make.shcd ..sh make_install.sh
ok... this looks messy, but gets the thing installed by hand, how i always do it. with nvidia things are a bit easier. you can also use the rpm installer but i do not trust them really.
Quote:Original post by C-Junkie Of course they're not, but every one anybody has to use is.
Of course all the most critical and commonly-used tools and libraries are well-documented. I didn't claim that they weren't. It's the newer tools that sit on top of them that try to keep up with the MS development environment that we've had poblems with. I also stated that my Linux experience is old. Undoubtedly many things have improved in the Linux environment. But many things have improved in the MS environment as well, and from what I've seen it seems that Linux has always taken a while to catch up.
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One anecdotal example to the contrary does not affect the rule in the least.
The fact is, the linux-kernel people can't do their job with binary modules screwing around with things because they can't fix binary modules.
You have a bug in a 3com driver, and you fixed it. Excellent. Now nobody has this bug anymore. Also, you seem to be arguing that nobody seriously thinks linux is better than BSD, and yet you ship a product running linux rather than BSD. hmmm.
There have been other incidences. I'm not claiming that Linux or open source is at fault, just that closed source drivers are not necessarily bad. Since video drivers have been mentioned, nVidia in particular has a very good track record with their drivers.
It's easy to explain why we're using Linux. Linux was chosen mainly because of the low cost RedHat quoted us on preparing a custom distro, and because that helped us get our product to market faster. The decision was made a number of years ago and has since been regretted. I'm not saying no one seriously thinks Linux is better, I'm just saying that no one who is paying attention would make the statement that BSD is dead.
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The Linux license should not force them to create a custom build of the kernel to get around the GPL to protect their trade secrets.
It doesn't.
Please explain. I'm sure nVidia and ATI didn't do it because they thought it would improve their customers' experience. I've got it! Microsoft paid them to do it. ;-) I apologize in advance for being a smart-ass.
I think I got the module as a binary (not sure tho, I remember compiling something). I installed the Linux drivers in the early summer so I can't remember exactly. The version is 3.7.6. I know there are newer versions out there but it seems that they do not have anything new to offer (some people said that they're just slower..)
And, yes, I do have direct rendering enabled. What ATI card do you have? I have a Radeon 9800 Pro 128 megs. Maybe I should try the newer drivers..
i've got a Radeon 9600 64MB (or so, not sure if 64 or more).
i donno what exact version of the driver i have in use but it is an older one. i have not compiled the newest driver so far as i have been too lazy ^_^.
i would trying a new kernel round 2.6.9 and the newest driver of them. you need to compile the driver yourself but it is not difficult. you get a stupid RPM package if you fetch the driver so either install it if you are (unlucky) owner of an RPM based linux or else extract it to '/lib/modules/fglrx'. for this just do this:
the last two lines copy the files to /lib/modules (as root). you tthen compile and install it with
cd /lib/modules/fglrx/build_modsh make.shcd ..sh make_install.sh
ok... this looks messy, but gets the thing installed by hand, how i always do it. with nvidia things are a bit easier. you can also use the rpm installer but i do not trust them really.
And you wonder why more people don't game on Linux?!
SlimDX | Ventspace Blog | Twitter | Diverse teams make better games. I am currently hiring capable C++ engine developers in Baltimore, MD.
I think I got the module as a binary (not sure tho, I remember compiling something). I installed the Linux drivers in the early summer so I can't remember exactly. The version is 3.7.6. I know there are newer versions out there but it seems that they do not have anything new to offer (some people said that they're just slower..)
And, yes, I do have direct rendering enabled. What ATI card do you have? I have a Radeon 9800 Pro 128 megs. Maybe I should try the newer drivers..
i've got a Radeon 9600 64MB (or so, not sure if 64 or more).
i donno what exact version of the driver i have in use but it is an older one. i have not compiled the newest driver so far as i have been too lazy ^_^.
i would trying a new kernel round 2.6.9 and the newest driver of them. you need to compile the driver yourself but it is not difficult. you get a stupid RPM package if you fetch the driver so either install it if you are (unlucky) owner of an RPM based linux or else extract it to '/lib/modules/fglrx'. for this just do this:
the last two lines copy the files to /lib/modules (as root). you tthen compile and install it with
cd /lib/modules/fglrx/build_modsh make.shcd ..sh make_install.sh
ok... this looks messy, but gets the thing installed by hand, how i always do it. with nvidia things are a bit easier. you can also use the rpm installer but i do not trust them really.
Umh.. I think I installed it with some make.sh scripts if I recall correctly. But still, the games shouldn't run so slow..
I hate to ask the obvious, but are you using ati's GL driver and the GLX extension in your XF86Config?
I set up my system on Gentoo, transferring from redhat, a couple weeks ago and couldn't figure out why my video was so slow. I remembered I had incorrectly set the video driver as "nv" instead of "nvidia" in the XF86Config, so it was using the non-hardware driver.
check that out and make sure. If nothing else, see what output glxgears says.
