Durability. A player is much more likely to walk around "safe" areas without armor if doing so brings about some kind of penalty. A slight, though noticeable-if-used-extensively (and I mean tens of gameplay-hours here) wear&tear system would keep users from donning their "uber" armor that costed them a fortune in all but critical situations. If you introduce a realistic weight system you could also prevent them from carrying multiple armor suits. A repair system would also be pretty much required here, though it should be pricey and always impact the total durability.

I believe Star Wars: Galaxies uses this method (no idea how much people support it). An example would be having a base durability of 400. Walking around two hours might reduce this to 390-395. Not the biggest loss, but it makes a difference when totalled.

Also, a charisma and movement modifier as already mentioned would be other things to think about.

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Original post by Conner McCloud There are two ways that I see to encourage players to remove their armor. One is to incur penalties to wearing them. The other is to make the armor specialized. Your suggestions all fall in the first catagory.

*mutter* i suggested specialised armour *mutter*

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Perhaps it completely absorbs all heat, but amplifies all other energy based attacks?

I would note that the heat has to go somewhere.

When the armour gets so hot that your skin starts to burn, that'd be a good reason to need to take it off.

Or, if the heat is magically only radiated outwards, when the armour gets so hot that infrared cameras in orbit around another planet in another system can see you, that'd be a good reason to need to take it off.

I'm picturing somebody in heat absorbing armour running from a battle through a forest, the radiating heat setting foliage on fire. It would be kind sucky if you found the hostages you needed to rescue, only to have your suit burn them to a cinder.

wow, thanks for the great suggestions!


About Power
I don't think this is playable. It amounts to a timed mission, which RPG gamers absolutely dispise. I think I'd better treat this like oxygen in space suits, in that its a long term resource
(weeks/months). That way you only deal with it in special emergencies.

About Stealth
Full on power armor shouldn't be as stealthy, agreed, but there needs to be power armor for stealthy players or they'll cap out before fighters, creating an imbalance.

On Water, Clumsiness and Destroying Items
The armor will resist vaccuum, so shorting shouldn't be a problem, and you could hide an armor at the bottom of an ocean.

You might be clumsy in power armor, but again I don't think gamers will tolerate destroying mainframes or consoles just because they walk to close to them. It's unfair because you won't have the same sense of space as a real operator would have, and I'm not sure that it enforces a strategic decision that's interesting. (It would be like some of the driving in GTA, where cars are notoriously brittle-- okay in that case because you're not supposed to keep the cars).

And if you find a rare, fragile item while boarding an airless hulk, what are you to do? Having to leave it would make you very mad, and having to come back for it would be annoying. Not being able to handle certain weapons will probably fall under the same rules.

Now, there COULD be a tradeoff between armored mandibles and sensitive gloves, but I'm not sure how to make this a fun tradeoff.

However, you must be of a certain race to handle certain weapons, so this MAY be okay.



On The Coffin Effect
*wince*

For those in favor of this, I have to ask: How would this play out? Let's say your armor stops working, what happens? Do you just die? As a player I think you'd respond to this the same as an insta-kill weapon effect.

I'm not sure this is playable.

On that note, EMP will probably need to only degrade stats, rather than shock the suit into immobility. This way, if you see your armor is being slowed, you can bail before you lose all control.

About Armor Variety
Mayrel and Hase and others made good points about multiple types of armor. While I do see there being a range, I think what I was looking for was situations where the badguys could legitimately coerce you or take you hostage (rather than just killing you). In a light, open suit someone can put a gun to your face, no problem, but in a sealed suit this isn't possible without a bazooka-equivalent.


About Stats and Other Limits
Definitely agree with skill penalties and requirements for being slow and even having excess inertia, which would make fighting fast, dodging enemies tough. I do like the idea of wear and tear over time, but this is like power: Can't be too fast or it creates a time limit, but if it takes a long time then the factor simply become money, which (as in all RPGs) eventually will not be an issue.

I actually did see heat, along with nanites, being a major threat to power armor. I'd like you to trade heat sinks for weapons mounts or other equipment.

The idea of not getting certain encounters because you scare them away, btw, is REALLY good.

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While I can see lots of weapons that will get you out of armor IN THE MOMENT, what's more pressing is getting them out of it before they enter certain challenges. This I think creates drama and forces you to think your way through a some challenges. In urban environments this is especially important as unlike the frontier, there should be a lot of subtle threats (mafia, cultists, secret societies).

I was thinking about something similar that I think would work well for what I think you want. The idea is to have two stats comfort and style.

style is essentially your visable appearence based on the clothing, accessories, marks, and equipment your character is useing. The style value of these items would be modified based on the local tastes. So in some places wearing power armor may be the height of fashion in others an arrestable offence.

A characters style value effects npc reactions and treatment of the character. It may modifer certain stats in social situations such as beauty, charisma, intellegence. It could also determine what areas you can enter(you've heard of black tie).

comfort is how the character feels, based on their enviornment and modifed by prolonged use of certain pieces of equipment.

as comefort decrease the character becomes less effective.

First, can't you get into the same interesting situations even while wearing the armor? People might not be able to threaten you with a gun to the head, but if they outnumber you, and you have no weapons, then there's just not much you can do. They might not be able to threaten you, but they can hold you down, and then take the armor off you or tie you up or something.

That is, unless the armor also amplifies your strength, in which case, you'd probably just knock them aside anyway... :D

Or just adjust how NPC's react to you. If you're going to meet with some big important faction leader, you have two choices. Go there with your armor, basically telling him you're not in a mood to negotiate, and let him react accordingly, or go without the armor, showing that you're unarmed, and want to talk. The former will obviously make him bring out his big guns as well, and the latter might encourage him to talk to you and you'll get a chance to bring out all your persuasion skills in getting what you want from him.

Of course, you also risk someone putting a gun to your head and dragging you down to a cell somewhere... ;)

But assuming you're going interact with influential NPC's, they most likely know that killing people outright is usually bad for business. If you have something they want, then they won't kill you unless they have to. If you arrive wearing three tons of armor and enough guns to fight a war, they might not think twice about putting you down, but if you're dressed "politely", they might be inclined to at least listen to you before deciding whether to kill you.

The same could go for "lesser" NPC's. If you try to talk to people on the street while armed and armored, you'll just scare them witless, and sure, they'll answer your questions, but they'll also be looking for an excuse to get away asap. They sure as hell won't stay to chitchat and give you the latest rumors... ;)
If you come dressed casually, they might think it safe to stay and chat, and you might get some valuable hints.

Something like fatigue would work well too, and could be combined with your original sleep idea.

Walking around in power armor wears you down over time. It's not a timer as such, because there's not a set number of minutes until you just fall asleep on your feet, but the longer you wear it, the more of a stat penalty you take. (Maybe adjust this by how active you are as well. If you just walk around exploring for a while, you'll take less penalty than if you're running like mad, fighting or otherwise exerting yourself.

But that would be a reason to take off the armor when it isn't neccesary. Just to "reset" your fatigue counter (which shouldn't take too long, because then it'll become frustrating. The goal is to make the player put on the armor when he has to, but not before, to give the penalty less time to grow. It shouldn't be to make you spend half the day outside the armor, or be frustrated about waiting for your stats to recharge.)
Of course, the penalty shouldn't be so great that the armor becomes useless over time, but just enough to make the player want to get out of it when he has the chance. If you lose 10% strength after an hour, and 15% after two hours, maybe with a soft cap around 20-25%, then sure, you'll still be capable of fighting, even when fatigued, but you won't be inclined to sleep in your armor if you can help it.

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Original post by Wavinator While I can see lots of weapons that will get you out of armor IN THE MOMENT, what's more pressing is getting them out of it before they enter certain challenges. This I think creates drama and forces you to think your way through a some challenges. In urban environments this is especially important as unlike the frontier, there should be a lot of subtle threats (mafia, cultists, secret societies).

Armour size/weight: Powered armour is bulky and heavy - it doesn't fit through the average door, and it might be too heavy for light walkways/bridges. Armour in urban environments is a pain at best, and dangerous at worst - elevators might not fit, or refuse to take you (weight), walkways may collapse, you may damage streets or soft soils (imagine sinking knee-deep into a piece of lawn somewhere)....

Also, your perception changes in a suit. Looking/hearing behind you is more difficult - these suits were designed for use in less populated areas or places where your objectives are clear, and your targets reasonably easy to spot among the environment. Using stealth it could be really easy for someone in the city to sneak up and disable your armour, or worse, inject your life support systems with a sleeping gas or poison. Or to just stick a "kick me" sign on your back.

Environmental hazard: If the power plant of a big suit is environmentally hazardous (fumes, radiation, heat) obviously it's irresponsible to wear it in an environment with unprotected people. Just the threat of problems (nuclear powered suits, plasma, etc) may be enough to have them prohibited in urban areas, on civilian ships, etc.

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Original post by Wavinator About Stealth Full on power armor shouldn't be as stealthy, agreed, but there needs to be power armor for stealthy players or they'll cap out before fighters, creating an imbalance.

Wouldn't it be natural for a stealth player to cap out before a specialized fighter? Moreover, it appears to me that power armor will be too powerful. Have you played Silent Storm? While the Panzerkleins were cool at first, they did kill a lot of the suspense, simply because you weren't vulnerable any longer. No single, hidden enemy could do any serious damage.

I would include the option to be extremely fast and agile and heal damage in a short time (through nano-machines maybe). This would make a fighter character without bulky armor feasible, kind of like monks in fantasy RPGs.

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About Armor Variety [...] I think what I was looking for was situations where the badguys could legitimately coerce you or take you hostage (rather than just killing you). In a light, open suit someone can put a gun to your face, no problem, but in a sealed suit this isn't possible without a bazooka-equivalent.

But with all this advanced technology, wouldn't a bazooka-equivalent be rather small, more like a compact rifle?

And please be extremely careful about adding scenes where the player gets captured no matter what. If you do, make it painfully obvious that there really was no escape. Have an entire army point their big guns at you or something. I hate the cut scenes in NOLF where I get knocked unconscious, beyond my control. The capture sequence in Deus Ex is even worse, because it seems that it should be possible to fight my way out and escape.

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Original post by MadKeithV Armour size/weight: Powered armour is bulky and heavy - it doesn't fit through the average door, and it might be too heavy for light walkways/bridges. Armour in urban environments is a pain at best, and dangerous at worst - elevators might not fit, or refuse to take you (weight), walkways may collapse, you may damage streets or soft soils (imagine sinking knee-deep into a piece of lawn somewhere)....

I'm not exactly sure gamers are used to this sort of idea, so this one is dicey. If someone is fighting you in normal clothes and you have a PA suit and they run into a building, what are you as a player supposed to do? Do you leave your PA suit sitting in the middle of the street while you go in after them (without armor I imagine).

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Also, your perception changes in a suit. Looking/hearing behind you is more difficult - these suits were designed for use in less populated areas or places where your objectives are clear, and your targets reasonably easy to spot among the environment. Using stealth it could be really easy for someone in the city to sneak up and disable your armour, or worse, inject your life support systems with a sleeping gas or poison. Or to just stick a "kick me" sign on your back.

The idea that a PA suit is vulnerable to quick, stealthy actions actually has a lot of potential. I wasn't planning on making them THAT primitive, but it would balance things if someone could come up behind you and damage vital systems. This would make an urban environment a nightmare, especially if limits like size and mass could be worked out.

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Environmental hazard: If the power plant of a big suit is environmentally hazardous (fumes, radiation, heat) obviously it's irresponsible to wear it in an environment with unprotected people. Just the threat of problems (nuclear powered suits, plasma, etc) may be enough to have them prohibited in urban areas, on civilian ships, etc.

I admit I'm REALLY playing fast and lose with this one. Technically, PA suits and starships and a lot of other gadgets shouldn't be let within a a dozen kilometers of any city. But that's not very playable because what it does is introduce a distinction without a real strategic tradeoff.

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Original post by EasyRaider Wouldn't it be natural for a stealth player to cap out before a specialized fighter?

I don't understand the reasoning. If you have 3 major forms of gameplay (combat, stealth, trade) I think they should all be balanced at the highest levels. Otherwise, one is so dominant that it naturally becomes the logical choice.

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Moreover, it appears to me that power armor will be too powerful. Have you played Silent Storm? While the Panzerkleins were cool at first, they did kill a lot of the suspense, simply because you weren't vulnerable any longer. No single, hidden enemy could do any serious damage.

Well, this is again an in the moment defense, but the scourge of PA suits (besides other PA suits) would be the RPG-equivalent, as it is for a tank; nanotech-based dissolution; and much larger guns, say from hovering cruisers.

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I would include the option to be extremely fast and agile and heal damage in a short time (through nano-machines maybe). This would make a fighter character without bulky armor feasible, kind of like monks in fantasy RPGs.

No, this isn't a bad idea. Actually I see sort of a cyborg / implant based approach as a possibility.

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But with all this advanced technology, wouldn't a bazooka-equivalent be rather small, more like a compact rifle?

Only if you posit an unbroken string of advances. In a post apocalyptic setting it's a grab bag. You could have gas-fired slugs and anti-gravity, depending on how wacked out the scientific understanding was.

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And please be extremely careful about adding scenes where the player gets captured no matter what.

Agreed. My motto is to always make it the player's fault.

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Original post by Spoonster First, can't you get into the same interesting situations even while wearing the armor?

It may be a flaw in my thinking but the assumption is that as you get higher and higher technology isolates you from the perils of the environment around you. In a PA suit, for instance, someone can't cold cock you (which is preferrable to the player, but will never put them in a dramatic situation-- something they often unknowingly want).

Of course, there could be a spiral of KO/stun weapons and the armor that resists it. Not sure about that...

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Or just adjust how NPC's react to you. If you're going to meet with some big important faction leader, you have two choices. Go there with your armor, basically telling him you're not in a mood to negotiate, and let him react accordingly, or go without the armor, showing that you're unarmed, and want to talk. The former will obviously make him bring out his big guns as well, and the latter might encourage him to talk to you and you'll get a chance to bring out all your persuasion skills in getting what you want from him. Of course, you also risk someone putting a gun to your head and dragging you down to a cell somewhere... ;)

I think this could work very well. It would depend on you having a sense of how honorable this NPC is as well as sometimes needing to take a risk despite that factor (and have a backup plan).

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The same could go for "lesser" NPC's. If you try to talk to people on the street while armed and armored, you'll just scare them witless, and sure, they'll answer your questions, but they'll also be looking for an excuse to get away asap. They sure as hell won't stay to chitchat and give you the latest rumors... ;) If you come dressed casually, they might think it safe to stay and chat, and you might get some valuable hints.

Yes, although some like the AP earlier in the thread thought this was an artificial limit it seems very credible, understandable and realistic.

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Something like fatigue would work well too, and could be combined with your original sleep idea. Walking around in power armor wears you down over time. It's not a timer as such, because there's not a set number of minutes until you just fall asleep on your feet, but the longer you wear it, the more of a stat penalty you take. (Maybe adjust this by how active you are as well. If you just walk around exploring for a while, you'll take less penalty than if you're running like mad, fighting or otherwise exerting yourself.

This MIGHT work but I'm extremely leary about these kinds of penalties because they interrupt your playing the game even when there are remedies. In Morrowind, for example, one of the most universally hated features I've encountered is Fatigue, even though it can be restored with items. Because your only choices are to either move and stop repeatedly or constantly fail in combat (when it's low) it makes for annoying micromanagement, realistic or no.

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But that would be a reason to take off the armor when it isn't neccesary. Just to "reset" your fatigue counter (which shouldn't take too long, because then it'll become frustrating. The goal is to make the player put on the armor when he has to, but not before, to give the penalty less time to grow. It shouldn't be to make you spend half the day outside the armor, or be frustrated about waiting for your stats to recharge.) Of course, the penalty shouldn't be so great that the armor becomes useless over time, but just enough to make the player want to get out of it when he has the chance. If you lose 10% strength after an hour, and 15% after two hours, maybe with a soft cap around 20-25%, then sure, you'll still be capable of fighting, even when fatigued, but you won't be inclined to sleep in your armor if you can help it.

It may work if a fatigue stat drained over the course of days. It would also have to be highly visible, like HP. But it's a very dicey gameplay mechanic, even with a soft-cap, because you have to ask: What are the alternatives? Is it meant for long-term use or not? If not, then what are the alternatives (stims, maybe, like they give modern day fighter pilots?)