Imagine for a moment subquests you've done in an RPG and consider the behaviors of the NPCs involved. Would those games lose their appeal if the behaviors were encountered more than once? Let me give a couple of examples of what I'm talking about, using Morrowind or Deus Ex: NPC Sneaks To Stash In Morrowind you can take a quest to steal from some NPC, but you have to wait until nightfall when that NPC starts to sneak around. If you're near the NPC they won't do it, so you have to be at a high vantage point or cloaked. To fulfill the quest, you simply have to wait for the NPC to sneak into a bog near town, then sneak away from it. This quest may be somewhat memorable because it is unique. What if, instead, rather than a specific special quest, this was the default behavior of some NPCs: Some have stashes, and they sometimes sneak to them, and when you take a mission to steal from them you're given the likely times when they're away (hence sneaking). Thug Impersonating Toll Collector There's a subway station with a suspicious looking character standing behind the tool collection booth. He demands an exorbitant amount of money, giving you the option of insulting him (so that he attacks), defusing the situation and coming back later, or (?) paying to pass. If you get into combat with him you'll find various enemies behind the door and eventually a pass to get onto the train and progress. You can also sneak through vents and passages behind him and gain an upper hand. Again, this situation is memorable because it is unique. Same question: What if this were just something that you could occassionally encounter, with a randomized enemy setup as well as random ways to get into the area?

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I've noticed that in Freelancer (a bit RPGish) you get very generic quests that are either destroy location, destroy person or collect cargo. The names and places all run together because they're not unique. This hints that making generic quests is a very bad thing. Consider, however, what would happen if every one of these generic events altered some value in the world. In Freelancer, for instance, killing lots of Xeno leaders could be made to cause Xeno encounters to be less frequent, or more frequent but higher level (as in reprisal attacks or assassin squads). The downside to this quest template idea is that if recognized they could be less exciting or surprising (story usually thrills because it surprises). But the downside to unique stories is that they're not very replayable (you can shoot the toll collector on site or steal the stash next game because you already know what will happen). Would this be as satisfying as unique quests (hard to answer since no games do it that I know of, but still...)? Do you see any other problems with going with a template for quests? Any other thoughts on this?

I think if you're going to make random quests, they should be REALLY random. Don't just have 3 quests that randomly plug into various NPC's, have 6 or 26 factors that randomly combine and then plug into the NPC's.

An example from my random sentence programming experience: You can make a simple program to produce a sentence of the form "The (adj) (noun) (verbed) (adverb)." This gets old pretty fast, even if you have thousands and thousands of words in the lists. Now, if you instead make a program that has random sentence types, and then picks random words to plug in, you get something like "The (noun) (verbed) the (noun) because it was (adj)," and the next sentence can be "Don't (verb) the (noun) in (place) or you'll get (verbed)." You can even take it to the next level, and include parts that are randomly picked for a sentence. Such as "If you are too (adj) {to (verb) [on (weekday)]}, [(celebrity}'s | a] (noun) will (verb) [your (bodypart) | in (place)]." Of course, it's much easier to make complex random sentences that always fit together grammatically, than it is to do that kind of thing with quests.

Alternatively, the quest system could be determined by something such as NPC's relationships with you and each other, but there could be so many factors involved that it'd seem random even if it wasn't. You just have to avoid setting it up in a predictable manner. I don't want to think "ok, if I'm nice to Joe then his brother will send me on a good quest". It ought to be partially affected by actions that don't follow in such a logical manner, like say what time of day it was when you rescued Gertrude's cat from the tree, or whether Fred's wife gave him, ahem, "attention" last night or not.

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Original post by onyxflame I think if you're going to make random quests, they should be REALLY random. Don't just have 3 quests that randomly plug into various NPC's, have 6 or 26 factors that randomly combine and then plug into the NPC's.

Thanks, onyxflame, I agree with you that there should be alot of different quests with different factors. However, you can't program so many that they won't be recognizable.

How will you feel, then, if you encounter the same quest again for a different NPC applying to a different situation? Thanks what I'm more interested in receiving feedback on (I'm trying to gauge how far the bounds of story can be stretched).

You could have a mixture of unique and random quests, as in Daggerfall. This had around a dozen essential "storyline" quests, and hundreds of non-essential random quests, which were constructed using a similar method to that suggested by onyxflame.

If a quest isn't part of the main storyline, it doesn't really need to be memorable, although that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to include as many variations as you can.

How I'd feel about being given a quest almost identical to one I'd already been given would depend on how many others I had done. If I'd only done 3 or 4 quests before the template/pattern was repeated my opinion of the game and designers would likely drop, but if I'd done 30 or 40 I'd be happy with that.

I pretty much agree with Wysardry. With my background in random stuff, I'd be likely to give the game a little chance to see if a quest repeating was just a fluke, but if it became obvious that there were only like 4 templates, I'd get really disgusted with the designer. It also depends on how fun the quest is to begin with. If it's a really cool quest, I'm less likely to get annoyed by having to do it a couple times with various other NPC's, as long as I'm not having to do it 20 times. You'd probably want to include some kind of routine for determining the last x quests player did, so as to avoid picking one of those the next time.

Here's another thought. Say you get dumped into a quest without having any idea what you're supposed to do next. (Think some of the puzzles in the Myst games, or some of the puzzle/areas in Tak 2.) If you've done a similar quest before, and you were observant, you may have a couple clues of how to proceed, but there's still some challenge. If you've done an identical quest before, there's just no challenge because you know exactly what to do and it gets boring. (That's what sucks about quests on the MUDs I've played, btw. The quest is exactly the same every damn time you do it. Fun to figure out, NOT fun to redo for the 40th time.)

Thanks Wysardry and onyxflame for the responses.


In general, it's interesting to compare missions in RTS or action games with RPG games. In both, you do the same thing over and over again but with enough tactical variation that it is (often) interesting, but it is the context / excuse for doing so that sets the tone, builds the world and stimulates anticipation for the coming future resolution.

In the most simple RPG the mission ALMOST CONSTANTLY is "kill baddies" with the possible mutation of "pick up foo; activate foo; or drop foo here." What keeps these quests interesting? The supposed reason for doing it, the story explanation. You can get a quest to kill someone, but there may be a moral decision/consequence to it; or it may be for gain of one thing at the expense of another; or it may effect some larger change in the world.

When viewed atomically, though, you pretty much do the same thing again and again but don't feel badly about it because the context changes.

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Original post by Wysardry If a quest isn't part of the main storyline, it doesn't really need to be memorable, although that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to include as many variations as you can.

By memorable, do you mean unique? Just off the top of my head, for instance, what if you had a quest that involved flying through the superstructure of an exploding space station? Done once, it's unique and maybe memorable as a result. Done 4 or 5 times (as part of a series of destroying a network of stations, for instance) it is less unique, though perhaps no less exciting each time.

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If I'd only done 3 or 4 quests before the template/pattern was repeated my opinion of the game and designers would likely drop, but if I'd done 30 or 40 I'd be happy with that.

30-40 sounds like alot.

Let me ask you about the patterns you encounter in modern games today, which usually only have a handful. How is this different from the "Kill Foozle" quests that dominate most RPGs, usually framed as "Explore / Investigate" (which builds up suspense) then, "X is the cause of the problem, kill X"; or the "Find the Foo" quests, which have a similar pattern.

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Original post by onyxflame If you've done a similar quest before, and you were observant, you may have a couple clues of how to proceed, but there's still some challenge. If you've done an identical quest before, there's just no challenge because you know exactly what to do and it gets boring.

You know, we may be misunderstanding each other here. I think you're thinking of quests as puzzles that have to be deciphered whereas I'm thinking of quests like campaigns that support whatever the normal gameplay is.

In your typical RPG tactical combat is the normal gameplay. The challenge comes from having different factors (weapons, items, powers, healing/HP resources) in the fight; from the positioning and grouping of the enemies; from the tactical interdependence of the enemies or your allies (if any); and maybe from the terrain.

You may get the message, for instance, that "Wan Shu has betrayed the kingdom and kidnapped my daughter. He plans to hand her over to that monster Lu Bu as a peace offering to seal his foul alliance. You must hurry and intercept them at Yuan Gorge!"

Now you may get dialog choices (accept/reject/etc.), you may have a role to play (can't kill those weaker than you/whatever), and you may have a variety of means you've leveled up to, but you're still on a "Kill Foozle, get Foo" quest. It's the same template, again and again.

Even incredibly detailed games like Morrowind or venerable classics like Fallout have the same narrow patterns when you break things down to the level I'm talking about.

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Original post by Wavinator By memorable, do you mean unique? Just off the top of my head, for instance, what if you had a quest that involved flying through the superstructure of an exploding space station? Done once, it's unique and maybe memorable as a result. Done 4 or 5 times (as part of a series of destroying a network of stations, for instance) it is less unique, though perhaps no less exciting each time.

By memorable, I literally meant that I would remember the specifics of that particular quest after a reasonable amount of time had passed. If it was unique within that game, that would help, but so would adding a new twist to a previously used quest/idea.

In your example, each station would need to be substantially different from the others (one is a maze, one is filled with aliens, one has booby traps etc.).

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30-40 sounds like alot. Let me ask you about the patterns you encounter in modern games today, which usually only have a handful. How is this different from the "Kill Foozle" quests that dominate most RPGs, usually framed as "Explore / Investigate" (which builds up suspense) then, "X is the cause of the problem, kill X"; or the "Find the Foo" quests, which have a similar pattern.

Although there may only be a handful of basic quest plots, there are ways to add variety to them (modify the template).

The Foozle wouldn't have to be killed: it could be bribed, have a relative kidnapped, be stolen from, politically assassinated (have its reputation destroyed), be imprisoned or exiled, have its memory wiped or otherwise have its "teeth pulled".

The same thing applies to the Foo: the Foo can be a single object, multiple objects, a person or information and the requirements for getting it can also vary (it's hidden, lost, owned by someone else, broken, dangerous in itself, a prize in a competition...).

In other words you can modify the form the Foo takes and the method of finding it to give a reasonable number of combinations.

Btw, that quest from Morrowind you mentioned is very similar to ones used in the first two Monkey Island games. [wink]

Ok, I think I got my wires crossed because my mom was playing video games while I wrote it, so of course my brain was stuck in the mode of that particular game. :P

However, maybe an example would illustrate after all.

*** Tak 2 spoiler***





From the beginning of the game, you've been looking for JB's lab. Once you finally get there, it turns out JB has been trapped by gunkies, and you have to navigate through various puzzle-like action sequences to rescue him. Most of these involve weird machines with globes on top of them, which you need to activate with a cannon while trying to keep the gunkies from (a) killing you and (b) gunking the machines or your cannon up. Other parts involve flowing-liquid puzzles where you can turn the intersections to connect the pipes properly by shooting a cannon, and you need to do this while keeping gunkies from (a) killing you and (b) gunking your cannon up.

When you first enter the area, it's just an "explore and hope you find something useful" phase. (There's a lot of places like this in the game, at least the first time through.) By the time you've finished a puzzle, you know pretty much what to expect from the rest of it. However, it goes on long enough that it gets old...I mean there's only 2 basic types of puzzles, they just get harder as you go along.





End of spoiler

I'm sure this "explore and hope you find something useful" phase could work in normal quest terms too. And in fact, the quest in this game isn't any less a quest because it involves jumping around instead of clicking commands and stuff. It *feels* like a quest, even if it's just to get to the end of the level, which it usually is.

And besides, there ought to be more puzzles in quests anyway. Things that fit into the gameworld and make sense, unlike all those weird devices in the Myst games that never just had an ON switch. Maybe I don't WANT to know exactly what I'm supposed to do from the beginning. What if someone tells me to find the foo, but doesn't tell me how, because he's really hoping I'll die in the attempt? What if he tells me to find the foo, but then someone else tells me the foo is vital to the survival of my civilization? What if the foo is really a dirty sock instead of a foo, and he was just testing my loyalty by telling me to get it? Maybe the foo isn't the point of the quest after all, or maybe the foo is really figuring out who to trust and who not to.

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Original post by Wysardry Although there may only be a handful of basic quest plots, there are ways to add variety to them (modify the template). The Foozle wouldn't have to be killed: it could be bribed, have a relative kidnapped, be stolen from, politically assassinated (have its reputation destroyed), be imprisoned or exiled, have its memory wiped or otherwise have its "teeth pulled". The same thing applies to the Foo: the Foo can be a single object, multiple objects, a person or information and the requirements for getting it can also vary (it's hidden, lost, owned by someone else, broken, dangerous in itself, a prize in a competition...). In other words you can modify the form the Foo takes and the method of finding it to give a reasonable number of combinations.

OK, gotcha. I think we're on the same page with this idea because it would be alot easier to come up with 8-10 or so plot templates with a drop-in variations (as you mention) than it would be to come up with four-fold that which ALSO need variations.

So you might run across a leader with "Rescue my daughter who has been kidnapped by my trusted advisor before she's delivered to my hated enemy" in one mission, then a peasant with "Rescue my drunkard husband who has been imprisoned in an abandon space station because of his gambling debts before the mafia kills him..."