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Original post by Extrarius The biggest problem with P&P RPG (beyond the stigma) is that it takes TONS of work compared to MMOs and the like: you have to find out about the game, meet some people that do it, find a good GM{definitely not easy}, possibly spend $100s on books, mats, dice, etc, and then actually schedule games and make them.

It's really not so bad as all that. Looked on Froogle for Shadowrun (one of my favorites), $25.50 for the 3rd ed rule book. All the rules you need, and even covers much of the material that used to be in supplements. In fact, just to get started, you don't even need that many of the rules. Raid your game shelf for some regular old six sided dice (You do own Yahtzee, right? ;) ) and you're set! Get some friends together, do the story like a ghost story (i.e. taking turns) done.

Sure, MMORPG's are still always available, but not necessarily the people you want to group with.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and D&D has its place. It's the best I've found if you just want to dive some dungeons and slay some dragons (funny how that works ;P ), but not so much if you want something deeper (but sometimes it's fun to be shallow).

I think what RPG genre need is a system with restrictive freedom rather than complete freedom.
For example is a game where the 'virtual dungeon master' tell the player what he have to do from the start of the game. Such as, 'you need to find a weapon before you continue foward' in this way, player are free to use any weapon they can find, maybe even a rusty frying pan (as if a frying pan isn't bad enough lol!)

I think, and this goes for everything in life, that too much freedom is often doing more bad than good. A restriction will force the player to think creatively

just my 2 cent :P

MMO's are still trying to develop themselves. There's a lot of new technology coming out regarind MMO's and there's still a quite a few hurdles. Give them 5-10 years and they might actually start pumping out the odd decent game. That and the focus is on tech right now too and not content. I'm sure a topdown MMO which a decent sized company behind it whose main goal is content over technology would do well.

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Original post by Telastyn Only slightly off topic, the argument that a MMORPG is boring because it only gives you 5 fights, compared to a 2D game which gives you 500 is a bit silly. The MMORPG will be far more fun if those 5 fights are challenging, involved, intermixed with story, or with a great bunch of friends and the 2D fights are pixelated tedium. Some designers continue to try to create art rather than entertainment. They've been doing it for more than 2 decades and they'll continue to do it.

I think Warsong was suggesting that it would be better for new designers to develop a simple and fun 2D game rather than try and jump head first into a MMORPG. Or at least, that's my take on what he's saying. Otherwise I'd agree with you, making MMORPG's 2D instead of 3D and adding more bad guys to kill wouldn't necessarily make it more interesting.

Personally, I think a lot of the fun from multiplayer games is from a combination of teamwork and competition. If the players are encouraged to create and join different factions, and those factions allowed to compete or cooperate with each other however they choose, the game may well be more fun, as the players will feel they are making the story, rather than repeating a bunch of preset quests which basically consist of waiting around for ages for the quest to reset itself, and then killing a bunch of baddies to get some item so you can kill even more baddies in your next quest. Player killing should be allowed, at least in most areas of the game, picking on newbs can be discouraged in other ways.

Extrarius-

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Original post by Extrarius The biggest problem with P&P RPG (beyond the stigma) is that it takes TONS of work compared to MMOs and the like: you have to find out about the game, meet some people that do it, find a good GM{definitely not easy}, possibly spend $100s on books, mats, dice, etc, and then actually schedule games and make them.

That's kind of my point though. Nowadays we want our entertainment to be just handed to us without much effort on our own part. We become voyeurs instead of participants.

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With an MMO, you buy the game (possibly buying it online and downloading it w/o leaving the house), then play whenever you feel like it. Sure, you have to pay monthly, but paying monthly fees is easier than paying up front (see credit cards).

The cost issue may be a sore point for some people, but usually all that an PnPRPG requires is the core rulebook and maybe the game setting (which nowadays seems to cost around $60 or so). But the ability to never leave the house is something I see as a bad trend. I believe that the internet is starting to erode social skills, especially amongst the group of people who prior to the internet would have been in the "geeky" class.

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If I knew how to find a good GM, I'd play constantly, but as it is the few people I've played with insist on systems I don't like and the only person that didn't suck at GMing that I know(the older brother of a friend) GMs for several other groups(his friends) so he doesn't really have time for us. I've searched all the online databases I could find on such things, and I couldn't find anybody remotely near my area running anything interesting (I don't much like D&D).

Unfortunately, it is hard to find a good gaming group. That's why I became the GM myself. GM'ing provides a different kind of entertainment than being a player does, but it's still rewarding. I also think all of my GM'ing back in the day primed me to be able to do world creation much better. In a lot of ways, GM'ing is like being a theatre director, script writer and referee all in one. You have to understand (or create) the world setting, you have to know how to nudge players in the right direction or deal with their choices, and you have to know the rules backwards and forwards. All of this really helps in game design I think.

I agree with that total freedom is the same as no freedom at all. The hobby-shrink inside me strongly feels that too many choices in any given situation generates a whole bunch of stress.

Why? Because as a human beeing in order to survive, i want to understand my surroundings as good as possible. I have a better chance at this if I constantly make the best decision when i am presented with a number of choices.
If there are too many choices avaliable, and I can't easily get an overview of what decision is best for me, I will as a result feel bad. I then randomly have make a decision, which makes me worrying if it was the right one.
:)

It's probably possible to make a MMORPG that actually involves RP, or at least seems more like a single player RPG. However, no matter how many people like RPG's, there's a lot more that like "kill stuff, then kill more stuff" games (most of whom are 14 year old boys who use 1337 speak). Since game companies who make MMORPG's want to make a lot of money (as evidenced by making you buy the game AND pay a monthly fee), they concentrate on the people who wouldn't see a point in anything more involved than killing stuff. These are the same people who make games with great graphics but zero substance. The technology may or may not exist to make something better, but these developers will probably take a long time to bother trying to figure out how to do it.

Side note - Take something common like getting quests from NPC's. Say there's a king who commonly gives out quests to PC's. What if some PC's get to talking, and discover the king's quests conflict with each other? (Maybe he tells one guy to save his daughter from the clutches of the evil Fred, and tells someone else to make sure she "accidentally" dies.) What if the PC's decide the king is either evil or crazy, and band together to kill him? Now THAT would be a game that might actually be interesting to play, heh.

First of all, the gaming demographic (especially for MMORPGS) is moving into the 20+ age range. Gamers are no longer all 12 year old brats playing all day because they have nothing else to do, that's why in many existing MMORPGs you see a lot of couples playing together and even fathers and mothers playing. The appeal of an MMORPG takes on many forms, it's a persistent world where you can develop your character, it's a relatively low-stress game (compared to action games) and can be played to relax, and it's extremely social.

It seems this discussion is being fueled by a lack of information on MMORPGs, or rather the fact that most who posted here have not spent a significant amount of time investigating. MMORPGs get a lot of attention because they deserve it! Its not like there has never been a "decent game" from the MMORPG genre. Ultimate Online, Everquest, Ragnarok Online, City of Heroes, these are all great games by any standards.

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Original post by Extrarius Quote: Original post by Dauntless I say play the pen and paper variety RPG's. Unfortunately PnPRPG'ing[...] The biggest problem with P&P RPG (beyond the stigma) is that it takes TONS of work compared to MMOs and the like: you have to find out about the game, meet some people that do it, find a good GM{definitely not easy}, possibly spend $100s on books, mats, dice, etc, and then actually schedule games and make them. With an MMO, you buy the game (possibly buying it online and downloading it w/o leaving the house), then play whenever you feel like it. Sure, you have to pay monthly, but paying monthly fees is easier than paying up front (see credit cards). If I knew how to find a good GM, I'd play constantly, but as it is the few people I've played with insist on systems I don't like and the only person that didn't suck at GMing that I know(the older brother of a friend) GMs for several other groups(his friends) so he doesn't really have time for us. I've searched all the online databases I could find on such things, and I couldn't find anybody remotely near my area running anything interesting (I don't much like D&D).

You can probably find an IRC game somewhere...I'm thinking about starting a new one (probably Fallout P&P or GURPS, though a new one would be cool if I could find one).

Get ahold of me if you're interested.

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Original post by PinFX ... it's a relatively low-stress game (compared to action games) and can be played to relax, and it's extremely social.

I've always considered blasting demons with a shotgun to be a stress reliever [grin]

I have to agree with the anti-MMORPG opinions. I don't think they totally suck, but they are not as enjoyable for me as a single player RPG. It's easy to get lost in a world that is dynamically changing around you, because of things you are doing. This is, for the most part, removed in MMORPGs. It's almost as if your presence is pointless. Nothing you do is going to make much of a difference to anything other than your own character. And if you can make a difference, it's going to remove everyone else's chance of making that difference.

In my opinion, a great MMORPG, as I would see as great, would take a 20 man designer team about 30 years to develop.