quote: Original post by Nazrix


That's a very incredible revaltion, Wav. I really think you're right. It ties together nicely with what I was posting about on the Cheese thread. In a story-based game we should take advantage of the fact that the outcome of events does not have to be beneficial as long as they're interesting because they're experiences. In a game where there's no narrative you're usually playing to win, so a bad outcome is a failure and is meant to be avoided.

*wimper* *insane laughter* "You see... I'm not crazy... you see?!? Nazrix believes me!"

The fact that story de-emphasizes winning points up a __HUGE__ difference between the two elements (narrative and gameplay). This is part of what I was arguing (in circles? ) about with Shinkage in the Nothing Wrong thread. In fact, the thing that makes story so __AWESOME__ is that either there's no victory condition or, during the course of the experience, it's greatly minimized (you may still have to kill foozle in the end, tho', which is often a win/lose affair)

quote:

"""" "'Nazrix is cool' -- Nazrix" --Darkmage --Godfree"-Nazrix" -- runemaster --and now dwarfsoft" -- dwarfsoft --pouya" -- Nazrix

Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

BTW, LOL!!!! Great sig!

--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...

Edited by - Wavinator on October 10, 2000 8:32:00 PM

Wav,
You're making so much sense that I'm adding you to the sig


BTW, the part about go FAQ yourself is something I saw someone have on a message board for the Elder Scrolls board, so I can't take full credit for it. It was so funny I couldn't resist stealing it


"""" "'Nazrix is cool' -- Nazrix" --Darkmage --Godfree"-Nazrix" -- runemaster --and now dwarfsoft" -- dwarfsoft --pouya" -- Nazrix


""You see... I'm not crazy... you see?!? Nazrix believes me!" --Wavinator


Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.


Edited by - Nazrix on October 10, 2000 8:59:34 PM

What the hell... I''ll give it a shot.

First, think heavily of some theme (or themes) that you see runs throughout world history. This is the key. The theme can be something personal, or just something you see as true, in a historical perspective.

Then, after satisfying yourself that it works, write a story. The story must be written to span several millenia. For example, a story of seven immortal sovereigns who were created by The All for the purpose of guiding and developing The All''s seven chosen peoples. Every number of turns, a meeting of the Seven transpires, where you insert a video clip, unfolding more to the story. Video clips are chosen based on the conditions of the game. For example, if two players are at war, play a film displaying that out in some dramatic fashion, keeping your theme in mind.

Finally, have a final video clip (or several for multiple endings) to finish the story, bringing the story''s theme(s) to fruition.

Good luck! I''m actually considering doing something this in my Civ-like game.

CP

"Can't you see it's only life! We can laugh about it!" - Seal

The question is not "How would you add story to Civilization?" but rather "Why would you add story to Civilization?" (besides getting fifty bucks from you, that is

quote: Original post by Chai Peddler

First, think heavily of some theme (or themes) that you see runs throughout world history. This is the key. The theme can be something personal, or just something you see as true, in a historical perspective.
[/qoute]

Okay, let''s say you pick "conquest" as your theme.

Then, after satisfying yourself that it works, write a story. The story must be written to span several millenia. For example, a story of seven immortal sovereigns who were created by The All for the purpose of guiding and developing The All''s seven chosen peoples.

Right, Alpha Centauri sort of has this. The characters are actually well developed for a 4X empire game. They have differing goals, differing personalities, and differing philosophies that all give their conflicts character.

quote:
Every number of turns, a meeting of the Seven transpires, where you insert a video clip, unfolding more to the story. Video clips are chosen based on the conditions of the game. For example, if two players are at war, play a film displaying that out in some dramatic fashion, keeping your theme in mind.
Finally, have a final video clip (or several for multiple endings) to finish the story, bringing the story''s theme(s) to fruition.

I don''t think you''re taking into account the repetitive nature of gameplay. How do you get story when you could be fighting someone 50 times?

Having characters and themes may be a start, but it''s really not enough. Alpha Centauri has seven characters and a theme (the settling of a new world). It even has text based interludes where you discover more about the planet you''ve settled. There is even a victory movie.

But playing it doesn''t seem to create a story. It does create a timeline, but because of the freeform nature it''s very hard to get the kind of drama and pacing that makes for good story. Even when things work perfectly and there''s enough tension it feels not like a story, but… (wonder of wonders ) a strategy game.

Maybe I''m not completely understanding what your saying, but it seems to me that to put an story into Civ, you''ve got to take away a lot of the player''s freedom. You could show movies when cities are captured, or technology discovered… in fact, Civ mostly does this now… but I''m having a hard time seeing how they wouldn''t just be disconnected movies as they are now.

——————–
Just waiting for the mothership…

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster

The question is not "How would you add story to Civilization?" but rather "Why would you add story to Civilization?" (besides getting fifty bucks from you, that is

To prove me wrong!!!! I think that it can''t be done, that narrative is fundamentally antithetical to the essence of gameplay (which is about making impactful decisions), and that the more you put story into a game, the less "game" it becomes.

I chose Civ because it''s to me the ultimate test of this idea. If someone can put story into Civ, make the story more than window dressing or intermission material, and still keep the fundamental freedom of the single player and multiplayer games, then I''d be happy to fulfill this little contest with a check!



--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...

Wavinator: Quote "I think your definition here bends the notion of what story is into an unrecognizable form. __IF__ your criteria for story is nothing more than a recounting of events, then yes."

What about people who read non-fiction? Chaka Zulu''s reign etc.

I''m not really a fan of Civ, (as it takes so long and there doesn''t seem to be enough Point to play it), but if Civ were taken away from the micro-management state to a "mid-management" state where it was more simplified (like Age of Empires on a big scale), then the type of thing where your city of Azathoth is attacked by barbarian hordes etc, whilst your coasts are neglected would work better.


Wavinator "Civ has this already, but it doesn''t seem to make a story in the traditional sense of an emotionally impactful, meaningfully orchestrated tale." _How many tales are emotionally impactful & meaningfully orchestrated Now or Before... I mean do you really feel that much when Hamlet kills X, or Y ? Hasn''t MTV
stopped people caring .

Stories can absultely make you care and feel. I watched the movie Titus last night, and when someone is killed it is an incredible emotional experience. I mean, in Shakespeare, emotional experience is not only present but it is practically exaggerated which is a good thing.


"""" "'Nazrix is cool' -- Nazrix" --Darkmage --Godfree"-Nazrix" -- runemaster --and now dwarfsoft" -- dwarfsoft --pouya" -- Nazrix
""You see... I'm not crazy... you see?!? Nazrix believes me!" --Wavinator
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

I doubt I could come up with a way of adding a narative to Civ. Especially after all the responses so far cover anything close to what I could think of. But I''ll try this argument if only to prove myself the fool.

It seems your position, Wavinator, is that games like FF7 and so forth that take away choices from the user in exchange for a narrative, are less than games. Or at least lesser than games like Civ. You might agree that Civ is a game for similar reasons chess is a game. You might say that FF7 has more in common with a book than a game because the player has very few choices to make. (Here it comes finally.) I say that FF7 has enough in common with hide n'' seek (which has been a game longer than chess) to be considered a game. Where is the next place I have to go? Which of these stupid townspeople have the info I need to change the world''s game state so that I can do something new? Where is that damn save point so I don''t have to do this again? That sort of thing.

I can also say that both have a beginning state and and ending state which the player attempts to reach limited by rules that programmers impose on the player. In Civ there''s one of 2 goals, conquer the world or win the space race. In FF7 it''s pretty much kill the bad guy at the end. The question is the same. How do I get to the end? When I put a puzzle together that''s why I''m doing it. Not for the choices which I can make, but simply to do it. When I play FreeCell I know that the programmers made sure that each game has at least 1 solution (that''s why each game is numbered in case you didn''t know) and I know that the 1 solution may be the only one available. I have no choice but to find it. That''s where the fun, and the challenge, is.

I may not have met the goal you set out, Wavinator, but there''s a (perhaps slim) chance I have at least changed your mind.

I was a *BIG* Civ2 player for a while so I can really say this is hard. The Civ series is what i''d call the best empire-resource-management games ever. Which makes for great strategy, but not much story. Hmmmmmm. A couple of ideas come to mind about how to intertwine story and strategy.
1.)Give each civilization a patron deity. At intervals, the deity appears and gives a ''state of the empire'' address(preferably in FMV style). This won''t *touch* the gameplay itself, but gives the players a feeling of having some deeper goal.

2.)I''ve noticed that each civilization in Civ2 has its own little perk...the Americans are faster science researching and the Japanese gain production bonuses. So why not turn these perks into seperate victory conditions??? The Americans can win if they can be the first ones to research so many advances or a certain advance. And the Japanese win if they can become however many times more productive than other cultures.(Those are just examples...if you couldn''t figure that out)

More to come when i solve this ''impossible'' problem.
-Run_The_Shadows
-Run_The_Shadows@excite.com