There are basically 3 music composing programs I know about: Noteworthy Composer (NWC) Fruity Loops Studio (FL Studio) Sibelius Each of these three have positive things about them. However they also all have negative things about them. NWC - Pros intuitive, easy, and fast to work with user interface notation NWC - Cons not much options for the notation FL Studio - Pros comes with and allows for many VSTs and plugins has a decent user interface FL Studio - Cons no notation it's slow to write music with, and also can't do triplets Sibelius - Pros has very good notation without any limits Sibelius - Cons extremely slow to write music in hard to edit notation (although it looks and prints very nice) So... why can't you just combine all the pros from each of these? Does anyone know a program that: -has a good interface like in NWC -allows for many VST instruments -has good notation that looks professional -can print scores professionally -can import MIDIs and other audio files to mix them togther like Cubasis, then export them to a WAVE or MP3 -can export projects as MIDIs: as long as there's no WAVE files in them, or without the WAVEs Does anyone know a program like that? Or do I have to make my own when I get the money? It doesn't have to be free.... This, in my opinion, would be the perfect composing program, and I wouldn't mind paying $400 for it. I just want the program to combine all these things into one (in an intuitive and easy way), instead of using multiple programs for every song. I think someone said once that they use NWC and Modplug.... I don't want that. I appreciate it. Dr. Mean

Have you ever looked at Reason?

Well I've heard about it... I've heard it's kinda like Acid. It's basically for making hip hop, techno, and drum loops. FL Studio is like that too.


Luckly I'm a software developer, so there's some chance that in the future I'll have what I need.


Anyone else know of a program that fits my description? =/



Dr. Mean

Sorry, there is no "perfect program". Also, if you think FL studio is slow in terms of writing music.. you're simply not skilled enough, put bluntly. I can write music using the piano roll faster than someone can write music in traditional score notation the vast majority of the time. Also, ANY sequencer can do "triplets", you just have to do them manually. I do it all the time in my projects. Really, if you're going to write music with your computer, you're going to have to move away from score notation. Score notation still has a place in performances, of course, but the best programs of that type - Sibelius and NWC - as you said do not have much support for features like VST hosting.

And saying Reason, Acid, or FL are oriented towards any genre is just extremely short sighted. I've written full symphonic pieces with FL, and I've heard film score quality pieces written with Reason. There are no genre limitations on any decent sequencer.

Personally I use Fruity Loops Studio for almost everything these days. I find the piano roll to be the most intuitive way to write music, especially considering that traditional notation is very biased towards certain scales and instruments. And although triplets are a bit fiddly, I can either do them by hand by editing the note properties, or use one of the quantization options to split things up. Of course if you're writing music in 12/8 or something just alter the number of beats per bar at the start (but bear in mind you'll have to cheat with the tempo to compensate).

EEk! MODPlug serves me well.

Zircon - True, nothing in life is perfect. That's a good point... I was just hoping. =/

And yes, FL Studio IS slow. I may not be skilled in writing music fast. Does that really matter? I can beat you ten times over in NWC. They were brilliant in designing it. Have you ever tried NWC before? And why should I move away from notation just because I'm dealing with computers? That doesn't make any sense. EDIT** True, it might be good to get used to sequencing, but what's the point if there's good notation out there? **

Also, I know there aren't really any limits. It's just that FL Studio makes it very difficult to do something like that.
______________________________________________

Kylotan - Good notation is not biased at all. Look at Sibelius. That has everything you could ever want. It has guitar tabs, snare drum stickings, even different note heads. I was just hoping there was a program that had all the other stuff I want and need, along with great notation like Sibelius. EDIT** Plus, you can't print out something from a sequencer, hand it to an orchestra, and ask them to play it. **

An I guess there are ways to get around the triplet "disabilities" of sequencers. But still, it's nothing compared to notation. By the way, although you did list some ways to get around it, changing the time to 12/8 doesn't actually solve anything. What if I wanted two eight notes on count 1, then an eigth note triplet on count 2? How would I do that? I guess I would have to go into the piano roll, and I could do it (and I'm not exaggerating here) 100 times faster in NWC.
______________________________________________

DeClown - Yeah I've tried some of those before. Still have the same problems.
______________________________________________



I'm not trying to be bitter. I'm just trying to prove my point, that all these programs are very flawed, and someone could just combine the pros from all of them.


What do you think? EDIT** Should we talk about how the perfect program would be like? Should we design one? I've been brainstorming for a while... **


Dr. Mean

Quote:
And yes, FL Studio IS slow. I may not be skilled in writing music fast. Does that really matter? I can beat you ten times over in NWC. They were brilliant in designing it. Have you ever tried NWC before? And why should I move away from notation just because I'm dealing with computers? That doesn't make any sense. EDIT** True, it might be good to get used to sequencing, but what's the point if there's good notation out there? **

Actually, I am 99% sure I would be able to write faster than you, considering I regularly participate in one hour music competitions where you HAVE to write fast. Of course, keep in mind, I'd not only be writing but creating and configuring samples, synth patches, equalizers, and other assorted effects (none of which you can do in NWC, to my knowledge). The piano roll was designed with maximum flexibility and speed in mind. Score notation is essentially outdated and only exists for the use of performance.

The reason why you should move away from notation is because good score editing programs are limited in their other capabilities. They're not designed with DX, AU, RTAS, and VST capability in mind. They're not designed with audio sequencing in mind. They're not designed with lots of MIDI and SYSEX features in mind. They're designed with readability and tradition in mind, so people don't have to use pen/pencil and paper to jot down musical ideas. You can keep telling yourself you don't need to do it, but that doesn't change the truth of the matter.

I hardly think FLStudio is a "very flawed" program. NWC and Sibelius, perhaps, but not FLStudio. It's extremely intuitive, flexible, and powerful, capable of virtually anything. Really, the only things it lacks now are easier audio recording/sequencing (which was only added in the latest version anyway), a channel freeze function, and better default plugins and samples. That's really it. It's as close to the perfect program as I've yet seen.

Quote: Original post by Dr Mean
Kylotan - Good notation is not biased at all. Look at Sibelius. That has everything you could ever want. It has guitar tabs, snare drum stickings, even different note heads.

Guitar tabs are a learning tool focusing on how to play rather than what to play and aren't exactly a notation that reflects the theory very well. Traditional notation is biased towards 8 note scales, specifically the major/ionian mode, and is pretty complicated for a beginner. I can appreciate that you want to stay with something you're skilled at, but for Fruity Loops users, there's very little utility to it.

Quote: Plus, you can't print out something from a sequencer, hand it to an orchestra, and ask them to play it.

That's true, but to be fair, hardly anybody using FL will want to do that, so you can't blame the makers for not spending time on that aspect.

Quote: An I guess there are ways to get around the triplet "disabilities" of sequencers. But still, it's nothing compared to notation.

Maybe not for you, but for 95% of people, the piano roll and step sequencer are so much faster than using traditional notation. There's no ambiguity there.

Quote: What if I wanted two eight notes on count 1, then an eigth note triplet on count 2? How would I do that? I guess I would have to go into the piano roll, and I could do it (and I'm not exaggerating here) 100 times faster in NWC.

Of course you could. And I could probably do it in FL just as fast as you can in NWC. (I think most musicians doing anything of complexity would do all their FL stuff in the piano roll anyway.) I know it's tempting to want something that does the best of everything, but you have to bear in mind that things are aimed at very different audiences, and therefore you have to learn the ins and outs of each tool.

Quote: I'm not trying to be bitter. I'm just trying to prove my point, that all these programs are very flawed, and someone could just combine the pros from all of them.

I don't agree that Fruity Loops is 'very flawed' just because it doesn't do what you want it to. It's merely aimed at a different market, one that doesn't need to print off scores for orchestras for example.

What you might be looking for is Finale. That's what I use and I love it. On the site it is $600 dollars, but I believe you can go to other sites and purchase if for about $400, unless you are eligible for the academic discount, in which case it costs around $200.

Go to www.finalemusic.com and try the demo.