There is an old tradition in film, of remakes. I think remakes are something that happen because Hollywood execs are too damn lazy to write a new story. They make a Beverly Hillbillies move, or all of those SNL-based movies so that they don''t have to worry about the risk of showing the public something *gasp* new! But there''s another kind of Rip-off. It''s the Tribute! By far, the most tributed man in film history is Akira Kurosawa, the prolific Japanese director. For instance: Last Man Standing = Yojimbo The Guns of the Magnificent Seven (and A Bug''s Life) = The Seven Samurai STar Wars = Hidden Fortress (not really, though. I''ve seen the movie, and Lucas only took bits and pieces. Star Wars is really more of a Tirbute to Kurosawa''s entire career...) Kurosawa himself was a tributer, remaking many of the works of Shakespeare in a fuedal Japanese setting. My question is, do we do this in games? Why or why not? So far as I can see, this is legally untouchable and morally decent (just don''t deny your sources...) and could make for some much better writing in games if done well. So far as I can see, there might be two kinds... Non-game A game with plot or character or various other elements taken from movies, literature, etc. In a way this happens already, but it isn''t terribly well done. Every Fantasy game ever made is technically a rip off of some literature, but they seem to take only the superficial aspects and leave the substance. Game This is the most common, but I''d like to see this well done also. Games rip eachother off all the time, but it''s to the point now where some old games are old enough to be used as inspiration for new ones. Riskier, but more appropriate... I just wonder if there''s anything old worth ripping off? Thing is, Ripping off stuff is the oldest writing technique ever. Everything you ever write borrows from something, a tribute just forces you to admit your sources. ====== "The unexamined life is not worth living." -Socrates "Question everything. Especially Landfish." -Matt

Just watched the 7 Samurai ..full version, 3 and a half hours...awesome movie !!!!!!

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One of my all-time favorites. This is what I''m saying; such a great movie should be exposed to as many people as possible. That''s why I approve of attempts to re-package Kurosawa''s works into more accesable settings (i.e. Star Wars, the Western, etc.) These are fully archetypal themes and hence translate easity! (The Samurai Clans become the Jedi, the Ancestral Blade becomes a Light Saber, the nautical smuggler becomes and inter-stellar smuggler, etc.)

So I''m wondering, if we see unrealized potential in games of the past, should we not attempt to repackage these stories in the techno,ogy of the present? And in the process, our storytelling skills in this medium will improve...

I haven''t seen the Seven Samurai, although I prolly should as soon as I get an opportunity. Incidentally as my next attempt at a game project I intend on doing a remake of the NES classic Excite Bike. I intend on preserving all of the original game play, making a few touch ups here and there to make the physics more realistic. The graphics will be real-time rendered 3D objects with (gasp!) colorful and vibrant textures keeping true to the look and feel of the original, but with all the nifty graphics techniques available today. My concentration is on mimicing the great gameplay of the original, but presenting it with modern techniques. Sounds like a pretty good excercise to me.

Unfortunately I cannot remember who said this, but it kind of goes with this thread, and that is that imitation is the finest form of flattery. It''s a wee bit paraphrased, but you get the idea.

Daniel "NitroSR" Piron

Cool. When I rip off the matrix, I''ll just say that it''s a tribute.

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"Don't die for your country, make some other dumb bastard die for his" -General George S. Patton

Nitro, as you''ve put it that would apply more to design than writing, but it''s the same principle at work. Many in this forum wouldn''t believe it if I''ve said it, but 90% of making a good game is going with what worked for other good games.

Problem is, some people don''t distinguish between what is useful and what is dead weight. (Square...)

Well, that''s where it''s hard to draw the line. If some geek decides to "make a tribute" by copy pasting all the graphics of Warcraft, adding some pictures he got on the Net, ripping some sounds from some other game, and mix all that in one horrific entity that he then releases ... can you really call that a tribute to something ? Can you be generous enough to grant the poor bastard the benefit of the doubt, and assume he is well intended ?
I have seen this kind of llama behaviour quite a lot in the MOD community, especially the skins for different QuakeLike.
TAking a sking and redesigning it to make something new is nice, it''s creative, it''s OK. Inspiring yourself with the design of a famous skin (usingthe color scheme, or some gimmick) is also cool, as long as you do everything yourself. But the kinda crap I have seen where some stupid c*nt decides to copy paste a masterpiec, and change some colours, adding his face instead of the original one, and then bragging "yeah, I did it myself" ... is just ...uuuuuh.

When I look at the MAgnificent seven, I can''t help but LMAO all the way through this poor thing. I mean, ok, it''s very weel done, but in terms of computing, it''s as creative as doing a copy/paste, and changing the colours of a drawing.
Do the experiment, if you have a free day, or two VCR. Watch the Seven Samurai, then watch the Magnificent seven ... you''ll know what I mean. This is not a tribute, it''s a fuck!ng rip off !

I don''t have a really high esteem of remakes in general, when I don''t see the value of the remake. It''s nice to see "The longest day" with colours added to it, because no one is saying it''s a new movie. But watching "True lies" which is a remake of a french movie, done only a fe years after, is just ... d''uh ... I''d say it''s cultural laziness, or something like that.

I am actually very confused, because for instance, I thought the Romeo&Juliet with DECaprio was actually excellent.
I am not very sure how you can give criteria to say something is a blatant rip off and something is a well done tribute. I think most of the time, people are considered as doing a "tribute" when they are already qualified, and respected person in there field. for instance, no one would dare qualify Kurosawa of being a ripper of Shakespeare, because is work is truly inspired (what I mean is that there is somethig deep and enthralling in it, it''s not just like I was watching a Shakespeare theatre piece, there is something *added* to Shakespeare own work by the way Kurosawa show it)
On the other hand, if you start your carrier by redoing a Tetris, I don''t think anyone will think highly of you...

Yeah, I guess tribute is a privilege of those who already have proven their level. It''s just like in Art, you have to go through years of Fine Arts to finally reach a level where you can draw like a 3 years old child (and I am not evn joking ...)

youpla :-P

(LF : your notion that Kurosawa inspired Lucas is intriguing, could you explain that a bit more please ?
Personally I love the explanation given in "George Lucas in Love" a very good online movie, gotta check that one out !)

I''m really just talking about tribute in a Writing context, not a design context. Art is Art, and there is a very clearly marked line between Tribute and Plagerism (unless you''re Orson Wells ) Writing, however, works off of underlying archetypal themes, limited in number.

For example, if I took Shakespeare''s Romeo and Juliet as a model for the undelying plot structure of a game, but made my own dialog and events... if it were set in an African Tribal culture instead of Elizibethan... But all the characters were still there, the plot movements exactly the same, just the symbolism has changed on a purely superficial level, the meaning stays the same. That''s not a rip off. It''s a tribute. Whether I do it well or not is a metter of my own skill.

If I made that into a game, with it''s own separate but equally well designed gameplay, wouldn''t that be cool? I just made it up, but it would be pretty neat, because that story is one of the best of the best! Why should I waste my time making something incredible when I could be improving upon the original?

Part of good Design and Writing is to only include aspects of a game that need to be there. Nothing should go in if it doesn''t support the original vision. BUT that doesn''t mean you can''t take somebody else''s completed vision entirely, and implement it in a new way! That''s cool! It''s spreading the message; and the piece isn''t ruined by superfluous crap that most video games reek of. Whatever, draw your own conclusions...

Oh yeah, Lucas. He was REALLY good at this crap. There isn''t a single character from the first Star Wars Trilogy who wasn''t straight up archetypal. Do you know WHY this is?


Joeseph Campbell.


If you don''t know who that man is, don''t claim you''re a writer. Don''t claim George Lucas is a genius, either, because Campbell is the real genius behind Star Wars, and his absence explains the new movie.

Joesph Campbell was a student of Jungian psychology, and heavily researched the world''s myths and their signifigance. He was a consultant for the second and third star wars films. IF you go read his stuff, you will certainly agree with me.

LF : yeah, I guess the only good thing with the Magnificent Seven is that it allowed the American viewers to discover a story that otherwise would probably be considered movie freaks material ... mmmh.

As for Campbell, no I don''t know his life and story, but I''ll check it out oof... I feel relieved not to claim being a writer, I am a mere artist to the most general sense of the word.
Actually, thespark.com says I am a Prober, and people think I am weird. I guess they were right.

As for the question of tributing/rip off. When the tributing effect extend to the size of a new trend (FPS games) ... what should we think ?

For the idea of taking an existing story / myth, yeah, I guess in the end it''s always about how good you are at taking other people ideas and making them be seen under a new light.

I would love to know who said that, but I think it''s very appropriate : "Copying from one source is called plagiarism, copying from many sources is called inspiration".

youpla :-P