I''m designing a fun game... atleast I hope that it''s going to be fun... anyway, I need YOUR help to make it fun Basically, I''m planning game, which has GUI-similar to King Of Dragonpass, so no animation or "action", but selections and stradegy Here is the story in nutshell: "Since baby you have been a thief... Literally! Think about it, you loved to steal candy from friends, and money from mom''s wallet. When you were ten years old, you tried to rob bank with dad''s revolver... and ofcourse failed. Still this didn''t change your plans: You want to be a master thief, leader of guild of thieves, and ofcourse you want to get into ''Gangsters Paradise Island'' - The paradise of thiefs and robbers, with looong beaches and sun. But before getting there, you have to rob a little bit... " So basically the game IS about robbing, planning perfect raids and working for underground people. First you will have to get some little money just by yourself, and by working for some small gangs, but after getting little money, you can hire people to work for you... These ''experts'' are little similar to "Jagged Alliance 2" and King Of Dragonpass: They are your left hand, and they don''t do any small thievery, because afterall, thievery is LIFESTYLE, ART, and ADDICTION. You use these "friends" just as tools, to make yourself rich. This is not only option (atleast I''m planning not to...), and you can just live Solo-life. Anyway, to understand the concept, think about all those "perfect raid" movies (Entrapment, James Bond movies, Mission Impossible, and so on). Then combine those movies to games similar to King Of Dragonpass, Thief, Jagged Alliance 2, and some business games. NO, I''m not trying to do anything HUMONGOUS! This game isn''t supposed to be Stradegy-action-FPS combination, not at all! It''s simply a "press button to choose" simulation, but if you have played KODP, you know that "click&choose" game can be really addictive and fun Basically I''m thinking of creating 100% text-based version first, just to test if this game is fun, and if it is, then I will add mouse & graphics support so that I can add some graphics and menus... Again, similar to King Of Dragonpass. This game is supposed to be based on "cyberpunk-stylish" dark world. Not into 100% science-fiction world, but dark modern world. "Player can do numberous different things to get money or tools... for an example, he could arrange robbery to car-shop, and steal one nice and fast sport car. Couple of days later he is going to use this car to rob a bank, but only when the plan is ready! "Mastermind Mickey" made perfect plan to rob bank, and now it''s time to work it out. Your ''tools'' take robbed car, and steal the bank. Thanks to "Kaboom Carlo" they managed to blow cell door, and rob everything, even though "Harley Hacker" complained that he could have opened door electronically. Well, it''s too late! Cops are coming, and your team has to get hell out of there! They take 4/10 of money and drive away. Cops are trying to catch them, but thanks to "Dasher Dan" drove faster and better than law-keepers... Successfull raid. Their better to leave escape-car so that police cannot trace our gang." This is just an example. Player chose to try blowing everything inside the bank, and ofcourse this is effective, but it will also make alarm for sure. In other hand, player had change to tell Harley Hacker to hack doorlock open and disable security cameras, and if he had done so, they could still keep the car, because cops cannot even see who stole bank. Or maybe they would have wanned to take guns in middle of the day and shoot every one like Bonnie and Clyde would have done? Maybe not the best way, but in case that team doesn''t have anyone to think a plan.... Uh... Maybe it''s not nice to shoot everyone after all, because cops get REALLY ANGRY when bodies come around, as well as your business friends get nervous for seeing "Wanted" signs everywhere. Terrorists do get paid well, but they are not people who are liked... Well, I have been explaining lots of ideas, and maybe everything cannot go into game, but I''m trying to create atmosphere! Now, I need YOUR HELP! Tell me your wildest dream about stealing lots of money from somewhere... ANYWHERE! I have included these things already to concept list: 1. Goverment (Fort Knox, White House, Pentagon) 2. Army (Military area) 3. Firms ... 4. Banks ... 5. Mansions ... 6. Shops (Prism, Jewelry, Car Shop, Computer Store) 7. Houses ... 8. Kiosks (McDonalds, Gas Station) 9. Pickpocketing (People) Basically you can suggest everything Player could also steal some computers from Computer Store, and choose to keep plundered stuff just so that he''s hacker can use Super-P600THz with T3-Cable - to crack some bank security, or move money from one persons account to another... Same with cars, for example truck and motor-bike. Truck is nice escape transporter because you can push cops out from road, but still it''s SLOOW... In other hand your ''tools'' could use motor-bike, but the problem is that each one needs own bike, and they get easily killed when anything goes wrong. If your ''friends'' get to prison, you will have to choose what to do with them... they might tell something about your gang, and it might be better to kill them! Unfortunately you cannot use them anymore if they get under the gravestone... Or maybe they are loyal to you, and you could as well just wait couple of years to get them free? Underground organisations could ask favorites & make deals to your gang, and these missions could be "special" so that player will get more status and money by, for example, kidnapping president and holding him just so that it would create chaos allover your country... Or maybe someone wants to get information from pentagons well secureted computers? Think about Mission Impossible... So, give me some crazy ideas! -Paladin ps. Even though I''m programming this game by myself, I''m always open for programmers who would be interested for creating simple scripted engine for this kind of game. Just to remind you coders, this engine DOESN''T need to have ANY, I repeat, A*N*Y animation, but somekind of simple dialog-funktions to speed things up. Oh, and one last thing, I would prefer to do everything with Allegro library

This sounds funny and cool. You might want to think about how time is managed in the game, as a lot of the hairy situations you raise (outrunning the cops, getting between guard patrol cycles) is time based.

You probably want something like a reputation system, so you can be known as the top dog. This could work for you and against you! If you''re #1, theives may envy and resent you and want to work for you.

You could probably easily implement a number of nifty tools and puzzles for how to use them even in text mode. I could see a nice economic model going with this, too, as you to break into Fort Knox you''d have to build up the capital for the team and nifty gadgets.

I''d be interested in seeing a more procedural breakdown of this, though. Is there a "case the joint" phase? When you choose to rob a place, how does that happen? Do you get a game map, and click where you want to try to enter? How do you place your guys, or do they all stick with you at all times?

Have you thought about how the rules for things like getting nabbed, or going to jail work? Also, you''re going to need a black market system. Maybe there could be multiple black markets, dealing in different goods.

As you were talking about this, btw, I was seeing cool art images in my head. Here''s a possible idea: Could you get movie vidcaps to use for your mockup? For instance, you could use a still from Mission Impossible w/ Tom Cruise handging from the ceiling to represent a techie breakin; or Sean Connery and Catherine Zeta-Jones on the Twin Towers in Entrapment. You could probably find these on fan or movie studio sites. Just a thought.

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Just waiting for the mothership...

>This sounds funny and cool. You might want to think about how

Gee, thanks =)

>time is managed in the game, as a lot of the hairy situations >you raise (outrunning the cops, getting between guard patrol >cycles) is time based.

Well, basically the whole game is turnbased. As I tried to explain before, I don''t want to create anything too complicated. Turnbased system is probably the easiest work things out. King Of Dragonpass works so simply, that it''s innovating... For an example, you decide to raid other clans town. When you ride, you just get some small stats and similar things, but nothing really big. Then you can just click "fight" (well, kind of), and results popup. STILL, the game has feeling that you DID do something important by choosing stradegies and good fighters. Sometimes your heroes (read -> ''tools'') get change to do something heroic, like slaying dozens of goblins OR running away, and player can simply choose which one seems to be better choise... "after all my hero is only fair fighter, which is pretty bad... but... aah, what a hell, KIIILLL!". This kind of action might result to perfect slaying, which basically means that characters reputation gets higher. Really simple, but easy and fun
I''m not even trying to plan anything really complicated. Everything is going to be so easy that you just choose what you do by clicking buttons, and so on... Basically we are speaking more about somekind of wallstreet simulator-thingy, but with much more interesting concept & roleplaying elements

>You probably want something like a reputation system, so you >can be known as the top dog. This could work for you and >against you! If you''re #1, theives may envy and resent you and >want to work for you.

Yes, this is what I was thinking about too... For an example, when your reputation gets higher, some terrorist groups might hire you to steal nuclear weapons from army, and similar things... of course player can choose if he ever wants to give this nuke for terrorists, because, afterall, blackmarket might pay REALLY GOOD prize for it
When teams reputation gets higher, cops get more alarmed...

>You could probably easily implement a number of nifty tools and >puzzles for how to use them even in text mode. I could see a >nice economic model going with this, too, as you to break into >Fort Knox you''d have to build up the capital for the team and >nifty gadgets.

Heh, something to think about
This "Gangsters Paradise" is basically similar to Sid Meiers Pirates - Pirate Cave, where you collect your money.
I''m not sure if I''m planning to let player be just a small and compact "special team", or if player is leading LAAARGE organisation... at this point I''m preferring small team only.

>I''d be interested in seeing a more procedural breakdown of >this, though. Is there a "case the joint" phase? When you >choose to rob a place, how does that happen? Do you get a game >map, and click where you want to try to enter? How do you place >your guys, or do they all stick with you at all times?

To remind you, I''m working with text-mode atleast for a first version (just to try what this game is like). I''m thinking that player actually ISN''T really "that genious", but he is really charismatic leader for team... little like Tom Cruiser in Mission Impossible: Of course he was little intelligent as for being secret agent, but after all HE DID NOT plan the raid to pentagon (if I can remember right). So, this is why I''m talking about ''tools'' (== heroes). Player needs some specialist to plan the raid, and if specialist is EXCELLENT, team has extremely good change to break inside and leave without causing alarm... but this doesn''t happen always, and sometimes player has to choose what to do (run away, continue as planned, trick police, and so on).

>Have you thought about how the rules for things like getting >nabbed, or going to jail work? Also, you''re going to need a >black market system. Maybe there could be multiple black >markets, dealing in different goods.

I was thinking about working things similar to Pirates!
Player can live only limited amount of time. Game turn could be one month or one week... now I''m thinking about month, because it''s much more realistic after all (again, check KODP). When player gets old enough, it''s going to be "the time to leave the show". Player would get result screen, total points, and some other stuff... When player gets into jail, he will have to stay there for certain amount of time. BUT, if he is talented on escaping, he can leave in shorter time...

I have SOOO many ideas, but I have to limit things to some point. For an example, I''m planning to leave drugs out from game. After all, if the story is trying to show thiefery as "art", I don''t think that drugs will make atmosphere any better... and I don''t think that drugs are that fun to play with anyway :/
Kidnapping was just one example of fun quest, but it''s actually way out from art of thiefery, as well as placing bombs for terrorists... In otherhand, plundering Nuclear Missiles for terrorists is thiefery.
The psychological point is little similar to ''Thieves Guild'' on fantasy games & books. Being a thief is a thing to be proud of! But killing people is never a thing to be proud of. And this is one point why I''m thinking about making killing really big and negative thing on this game.

>Catherine Zeta-Jones on the Twin Towers in Entrapment. You >could probably find these on fan or movie studio sites. Just a >thought.

Heh, I was thinking something similar
But first I want to try if this kind be even that fun what I''m planning

-Paladin

Paladin -

You little thief. How DARE you steal my game design!! What a frikin lowlife. Can''t you be original at all? This is so sad. Why I oughtta... I oughtaa.... send you an email so we can start to work together.

HAHA. Had ya goin there huh? Well, hope so - that was the point of it... seriously tho, I already had this idea and I''m working on the game design document right now. Set the day number to about last week in this forum and look for the thread.... screw it, here''s the link (duh) Living Game World. In fact, I just revived it - sorry to PaulCunningham, I never realized he posted something in response to my latest post. Whoops. Anyway, it''s back into open discussion now, so if I screwed up the link, you can find it.

If you want to try and work together on this, just send me an email and we''ll talk, or click on my ICQ button when I''m on. Hey Wavinator!! Thanks a lot for mentioning me man! (heavy sarcasm)



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\\// live long and prosper; \||/ die short and rot.
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>You little thief. How DARE you steal my game design!! What a >frikin lowlife. Can''t you be original at all? This is so sad. >Why I oughtta... I oughtaa.... send you an email so we can >start to work together.

Oh, damn, sorry man ! :D
I didn''t realize that someone had same concept going on (yeah right
I haven''t been reading messages over here for a while
So if this means that other people are thinking about creating similar game, maybe it could be fun enough idea for a game

>If you want to try and work together on this, just send me an >email and we''ll talk, or click on my ICQ button when I''m on. >Hey Wavinator!! Thanks a lot for mentioning me man! (heavy >sarcasm)

Well... there is only one big "but". If I got your idea right, you are thinking about game which works little more like stradegy game. Maybe somekind of topdown-thievery (like GTA)?
Full living city sounds really complicated project, and if player has to steal things by himself, the project will become extremely big, and this is what I''m trying to avoid... And so I''m thinking about creating this game like King Of Dragonpass: No animation, no realtime, only buttons to click, and some bars to move
I was thinking to create simulation&rpg game, but absolutely no action game... well, because I''m not extremely talented programmer, even 2D is hard enough for me

But hey, I''m always open for help, and looking for partners to work with
Could you tell me little more about this game you are designing, because I found out only little things about it, but I''m not sure if it''s FPS, Racing game similar to GTA, or what...?

-Paladin