Playing MMORPGS, I've found that usually the level heirarchy is upside down - there's thousands of people at level 100, and just one or two at level 1. Besides being unrealistic, for me, that takes all the fun out of progressing through the levels - I mean, if everyone else has got to level 100, it just takes all the challenge out of getting there yourself. I think a possible way to solve this would be true death, so that you have to start again with a new character when you die, which would mean that only a few people would actually survive long enough to get to the high levels, and most people would be stuck on the low levels - the hierarchy would be the right way up. Thoughts anyone? http://www.geocities.com/ben32768 Edited by - benjamin bunny on 9/12/00 10:29:27 AM

I agree that the levels get mal-aligned over a greater period of time... (most) everyone on UO is "maxed out."

The system needs to remain balanced through-out the life of the game. I think that "true death" is one way to control this, but with the current connectivity issues faced by the average internet user, think that this would impact the enjoyment of the players (these issues have been discussed in detail elsewhere on this forum) too much.

I think the problem with the existing MMORPGs is that they have built a static system that have maxed levels and etc... that''s why in UO you have seen the two extra releases, both extended the play area and added more difficult beasties. Same for EQ, they had a level 50 max... therefore a new release.

Ideally you would want a system that would expect this. Another issue is content. Actually these two things (character growth and content) go hand in hand. If characters are developing at an excellerated rate, the addition of content geared for these players must be made. If you set the game up to be incremented as the mass of players progress, then you have "done good!"


Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser

One more thought... after rereading your message, I think you are concerned with the distance between veteran players and new players, is this correct?

I''m not so sure that you can solve this issue. I mean, look at real life. I''m 35 take me and a professional baseball player my age, I will never be able to hit a baseball as well as he does. For one he has more years of experience and by the time I do improve, I will be to old to be serious about playing.

Although most MMORPGs do not implement aging this is not the case. A character that has been playing 6 months is at level 35, a new player is at level 1... so in 6 months he may reach level 35, but in this time the first player is at level 45. 6 months later and the second player is at level 45 and the first is now at 50. At some point the second player will catch up to the first. This is assuming that you set the system up in a way that adds difficulty to the progression of each player. Eventually everyone will be maxed out!

Also (most)higher level players will help players of lower levels. So, there is no way to keep that from happening... unless you put limits on the items a player can use at certain levels.

With a little creativity a design can be implemented that will alieviate these problems. I can''t discuss them here due to an NDA that I have signed with VenuSoft. Although, Wavinator''s philosophy is true, we have some elements in our design that are (currently) original.

Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser

Just make level advancement harder. Defeat the bots. If it''s not possible for my character to make it to level 100 using my bot program in just 5 hours, then I''ll stop trying and start playing. The trick is to make the play of the game more fun than the rewards of the game.


Pax

A somewhat heretical suggestion: Get rid of levels entirely and have a more minor gradations based on skill. If we''re talking realism here, a single warrior can''t take down an army, no matter what.

If you get rid of godlike characters, an obvious question comes up: How do you advance? I vote a real world system of respect, money, and influence. There are two great things about this: 1) Players now need other players more, and you''ll have richer players employing poorer players (and thus creating quests ); and 2) power will always ebb and flow if the advancement mechanic is right, so that top level players will often be at odds with each other, thus making your world rich with conflict

Another side benefit would probably be that a newbie with the right weapon has a good chance of taking out a high level character. You''d then probably have to make death somehow more costly to prevent an army of suicidal newbies, but that''s a different problem.

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Just waiting for the mothership...

Levels are so ingrained into the RPG genre. Removing them is not an easy task. Firs toff players have a need to compare themselves to everything around them. It is their primary mode of understanding where the fit into the persistent world. This need to compare can be a great driver for emotions such as fear, anxiety, nervousness, elation, and happiness while the player is playing the game. Levels has for a long time provided the player with a single comparison number that makes orienting oneself in the world a rather simple task. Consider a world without levels if you would and you quickly realize that performance and advancement have to be measured in other ways. UO tried the system of incrementing a characters skills and stats as they advanced. This works but it is insanely difficult to get a good reading on you as compared to someone else and in the end all the players did was count the total skill points and turn that into a level counter for terms of comparison.

I would have to say that in removing the level scheme from games, you will find it most difficult to give users a method of comparison in order to better understand where they fit into the world. Venusoft has discussed many approaches to this problem and our solution, as has been mentioned by Dak, has not been implemented in an MMORPG before. Once the game is complete I would love to come back here and discuss the finer points of it with everyone here and see what you think.

Before removing levels to try to solve the disparity between players consider the amount of information that they are given to perceive positions of power from within the game world. It will make you think hard about removing them.

Kressilac


Derek Licciardi

VP Product Development
Check out www.greatshot.com