I cant see the logic in what you''re saying ahw. If one developer makes a game that people will complete professionally in then there''s still hundreds of other developers making games for the rest of us who aren''t interested in it. There''s no rationale in what you''re saying.

I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!

There is no rational in what I am saying because I am a onfused mind but that's OK.

If you want to see a logic, don't look at me and look at the way the market works... the *marketing* has a simple and effective logic, what makes more money is what we want to focus our attention on. Please just look at the industry right now, and at the industry years ago, what's the difference ? More money ? Yes ! More creation ???? Come on, is Diablo II that creative compared to Rogue, or Nethack ??? Look at Starcraft, what's so creative in remaking over and over Dune 2.
No the rest of the market hasn't dissapeared, but do you see ID software any more cool plat form like the Commander Keen series ? No, because they don't have the time/ and it's not worth spending money on doing it.

And that's what you'll get at a larger scale if you introduce *too much* money in the system. Corporations will take over (haven't they already ?) and dictate *their* laws, and the law of market don't plan any help for the unproductive, the creative that has no marketing value, etc ...

you would say I make far stretched comparisons, but it's like the american system as I see it, if you work, you are rewarded by your own efforts, if you don't work, you go to hell and you die. If your game makes money, we keep it, if it doesn't, you go to hell and you die... if you introduce professional gaming, where will *most* players go ? where the money is ... and yes there will still be *some* amateurs left, there always is, but there won't be any money invested, progress will be slower, etc ...


aaaaah, I am getting arried away again

sorry

ps: Oh, Paul, I realise what might trouble you, is it because I give a counter example to my own reasoning ??? But remember, if you're confused, I win

Edited by - ahw on September 11, 2000 12:03:23 PM

quote: Original post by ahw

No the rest of the market hasn't dissapeared, but do you see ID software any more cool plat form like the Commander Keen series ? No, because they don't have the time/ and it's not worth spending money on doing it.

Now your asking for it, how can you put yourself in the shoe's of ID software? I know for a fact that a lot of people there would have left if the company didn't allow them to do Doom 3. Can you tell me why any one at ID Software would want to do a platform game anyhow?

quote:
And that's what you'll get at a larger scale if you introduce *too much* money in the system. Corporations will take over (haven't they already ?) and dictate *their* laws, and the law of market don't plan any help for the unproductive, the creative that has no marketing value, etc ...

I think a lot of people have favourite developers, this trend with probably change more as developers start licencing out there software. But at the moment there are a lot of developers making crap because all the bosses want to do is get something out that will make money and keep their business afloat. You've got to remember that a developer company is not like a retail store where you're (hopefully) making money everyday. I don't think its an issue of some sort of corporate attitude, its more an issue of keeping your business afloat. There's definity a lot more competition in the industry these days as compared to 10 years ago. The affects of this on the games being made is evident when you go down to the electronic boutique (more diversity of games and genres and the occasional brilliant game). I think that there are a lot of excellent games out these days but sadly i can't afford them. There's that damn $ again

quote:
you would say I make far stretched comparisons, but it's like the american system as I see it, if you work, you are rewarded by your own efforts, if you don't work, you go to hell and you die. If your game makes money, we keep it, if it doesn't, you go to hell and you die... if you introduce professional gaming, where will *most* players go ? where the money is ... and yes there will still be *some* amateurs left, there always is, but there won't be any money invested, progress will be slower, etc ...

That's just pure opinion, no foundations what so ever

quote:
ps: Oh, Paul, I realise what might trouble you, is it because I give a counter example to my own reasoning ??? But remember, if you're confused, I win

What's wrong, getting a little shakey in the ole ahw boots are we hehehe

I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!

Edited by - Paul Cunningham on September 12, 2000 11:08:22 PM

quote: Original post by Paul Cunningham

I cant see the logic in what you''re saying ahw. If one developer makes a game that people will complete professionally in then there''s still hundreds of other developers making games for the rest of us who aren''t interested in it. There''s no rationale in what you''re saying.

Just wanted to back ahw up with some anecdotal evidence here: Even hardcore, dedicated developers feel the pull when the market shifts toward something that makes a ton of money. It''s kind of like the Internet tech stock investing spree we had here in the US a few months back. When there''s a gold rush, people seem to feel stupid if they don''t pick up a pickaxe and join in-- even if it''s not what they''re called to do. A company I worked at had the pleasure of working with SSG, makers of some pretty cool hardcore turn-based strategy games. I got the impression that they felt the siren song of RTS, and if you look at the latest Warlords, you could probably say I was right.

I think what ahw is talking about is that with an increase in scale you get a lot of pressure on the folks most vulnerable to most common denominator effect. For us, it''s the publishers, and this same force has been dumbing down our games since the FMV scourge in the early 90s (in pursuit of a more mainstream audience).

Now, I think what has worked brilliantly for those of us into PC gaming is the fact that there''s not enough money in this business. I''ve laughed my a$$ off watching Mattel and Hasborg gobble up company after company (I was at Broderbund when they chewed up Red Orb Entertainment) only to get a case of serious financial indigestion (bye bye Jill Barad!!!!). Every time they post an earnings loss or talk about selling off business units they just had to hack up and devour (anyone remember Avalon Hill?) I smile daggers.

My hope is that the business stays small. That''s where the core creativity is. Let the publishers go after the mass market, choke Electronic''s Boutique''s shelves with butt-simple console titles and value priced copies of "Who Wants to be a Millionare Survior on Jeopardy?", and give us indie developers broadband delivery over the internet.

(BTW, I agree again w/ ahw... jump on this idea now, you''ll make millions... just remember us little guys )

--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...

Well, at least someone saw my logic behind the confusion, tahnks Wavinator, I don''t have the advantage of working *in* the industry (actually, now that I know a bit more people inside, I really think I am not that in a hurry)

Paul ; I can''t put myself in ID''s shoes, but what I know is that Commande Keen was one of their most succesfull title, before they went rampage with Wolfenstein... oh, and how do I know they actually cared about that little platform game ? Well, find the secret in Doom 2 (I think Doom 2...)

quote:
But at the moment there are a lot of developers making crap because all the bosses want to do is get something out that will make money and keep their business afloat.

Isn''t that exactly what I was talking about ??? Management trying to make money rather than good stuff ? OK, you say it''s to survive, and I''ll agree on that, but if you are down to the state of ''survival'', I''ll have to question the quality, either of the company in terms of games, or in terms of management (Looking Glass being the most horrible example that even the best can get screwed by management )

quote: That''s pure opinion

Yes it is


Overall, I''ll say it again, go for it, sign the contract with your blood, ''cause it''s the devil you''re gonna be dealing with, and when you are buying your third Ferrari, just remember that one day, you had this weird discussion with those dreamers that think you can do good game without having to put money everywhere in and arount it ...

Far enough, i understand what you''re saying. If it became popular to make money competition games as the easiest way to make money then everyone would be on the bandwagon. We''d soon lose those genres of games that don''t fit into the mold of money competition because they''re not making as much money. Give me a big smiley if i hit the nail on the head But until then i''ll have to give this a lot more thought.

I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!

Praise the Lord ! He understood

Yep, that''s the idea.

But what I still believed what I said : yo won''t be the only one to think about it, and it *WILL* be done ; I just can''t seem to imagine something like ASHBROOOO deciding not to go for more money making opportunity...

The question is, do you want to work for *them* ?!

I''ve not really followed the Hasbro stuff but recently they set up an office practically at the top of my street. Yesterday i went up there to watch the Olympic Flame go by and all of the office staff from Hasbro were out on the balconies. God, you''ve never seen such a bunch of immature wankers i tell. These people were absolute dick heads. They had one of those watergun4000 pump things and were shooting it at people from up above. Ah, they were such Dick-Heads! They didn''t get me though.

I also looked up at the 3 helicopters that were following the torch as my gaze dropped my eye caught hold of a little speck in the sky. I asked my mum who was with me if she could see it but she doesn''t have the best eyesight and i knew what her response was going to be. So i look away and back again and this spot was still just sitting there (completely still). I asked my mum for here camera which she gave me. As i was just putting the camerea up to my eye''s i swear i saw it dart. When i got the camerea over my eye it was gone. Damn it!! But at least i''ve seen a real ufo I swear this happened on my family name and my integritry.

I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!

Ok we have changed topics quite alot...I love the idea of an internet game job...you should really look into sponsorship as well to make the tournaments more affordable!

P.S. I like it!

"If I wanted to hear the pitter patter of little feet I would put shoes on my cat!"- One Great Programmer (Garret Foster)

quote: Original post by Paul Cunningham

Damn it!! But at least i''ve seen a real ufo I swear this happened on my family name and my integritry.

Paul, don''t you see these two events are connected?!?!?!?!!!! Hasborg. UFOs.

Listen to me carefully, you may be in great danger...






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Just waiting for the mothership...