BWU-HAH-HAH-HA!!!! Ahem. You know, I'm sick of getting to the next level. I'm tired of being told to kill Foozle. I want to end goblin genocide, really I do . In fact, what I want is to create my OWN evil (or good) plot to do whatever I choose!!!!! You know those cool plots in books or movies? Why is it that we as players can't make these up in a game ourselves? Why do we always have to follow orders, or quests, or level exits, or whatever? What would it take for players to make up their own plots? To call their own shots? Rise up, gamers!!! Rise up, I say, and throw off the shackles of interactive oppression!!! Stories can be turned into strategy. Just as there's a strategy to beat back a zergling rush, there's a strategy to get Neo to become the One with you playing Morpheus. Just as there's a strategy to taking out a room full of zombies, there's a strategy to corrupting Skywalker and getting him to join the Dark Side. Think about it, people. Secrets... desires... truths... fears... power... these are all elements of story, and they can be be elements of strategy just as well... (Man, I need my coffee... ) -------------------- Just waiting for the mothership... Edited by - Wavinator on 8/12/00 9:32:48 PM

It would be nice if in an RPG we had the Temptation factor.

I mean the evil guy(s) will not just plan how to fight you.
There are other ways,sometimes more efficient,to win a battle.

The members of your team could be tempted and lured by the money and power the evil could offer them.

In real time this happens a lot,even by making someone a traitor that reaveals to the enemy all the plans,or by corrupting the leaders and winning the battle before it starts.

The good guys can turn to bad guys sometimes.
If the evil pays in cash!

Voodoo4

Yes, where''s the grey shades gone?!!

I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!

Haven''t we already discussed grey? Not being able to tell good from evil? Or was that an NPC debate? It''s in the doc anyway

-Chris Bennett ("Insanity" of Dwarfsoft)

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Guys, I wasn''t so much thinking shades of grey. Yes, we''ve talked about that, and that''s cool.

What I''m talking about (if it makes any sense) is a game that allows you to make up your own plots. So you get the quest to figure out what''s up with the iron shortage in Baldur''s Gate. Why couldn''t you be the guy behind the iron shortage? So you get the mission to stop the Master in Fallout. Why couldn''t you be the Master? How would an RPG work if you were Kane of Nod, or Darth Vader, or ?

What kind of system would it take to be the guy behind the evil plots? Or good plots, for that matter? RPGs tend to lock us into the role of being the plot solver, and I was just wondering about be the plot CREATOR...

To make this work, I think you''d need to be able to get info about the how the game world works. For instance, say you wanted to take over trade routes and control all the water in a desert land. You''d need to be able get info on caravan schedules, well locations, etc. Then you could bribe merchants, poison the camels, raid wells, etc., etc. And if you did it all secretly, YOU would be the guy creating plot, rather than solving the same old, same old kill Foozle quests that are rife in RPGs.



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Just waiting for the mothership...

Sounds good, but I still think that you would have to put a story behind it and limit the actions somewhat, otherwise it would be unplayable. No depth and no storyline tend to kill a game fairly quickly.... Someday, maybe we will get there though... *sigh*

-Chris Bennett ("Insanity" of Dwarfsoft)

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Would you say that Civilization or Master of Orion had a storyline? Or were you making up the story as you played. Just curious...

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Just waiting for the mothership...

They are sims or RTS... I am talking about RPG''s... See the difference? I guess I am a little too RPG oriented. You just can''t realistically have an RPG with no predefined story *sigh*... yet

-Chris Bennett ("Insanity" of Dwarfsoft)

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quote: Original post by dwarfsoft

They are sims or RTS... I am talking about RPG's... See the difference? I guess I am a little too RPG oriented. You just can't realistically have an RPG with no predefined story *sigh*... yet

Yes, I see what you're talking about. But I'm not sure I agree (feel free to bash my head w/ logic, tho' :D) My whole point is that strategy and story are very similar in some respects.

A strategy game involves a bunch of players taking actions against each other to achieve some desired effect. The actions they can take break down into a kind of library (or action palette, as I prefer). When actions are taken is a matter of strategy, and is informed by motivations and the end goal.

How does this apply to story? Well, think about all the things a character can do (their action palette). Now think abou the game world not just in spatial and military terms (as you do in a strategy game), but also in terms of things like emotion and status. Just as a player can affect a city by bombing or improving it, a character can affect another character by taking some action. Why a character performs one action or another is a matter of strategy, or the end goal that that character is trying to achieve.

You mentioned predefined story. Let's say you let the AI fight it out in a strategy game, then started playing right at middle phase of the game. Let's say it's a game as rich as Alpha Centauri, where faction leaders have personalities and conflicting goals. Notice that now you are in the middle of a "story" complete with a prior history ("backstory"), and with a plot already in motion.

The major trick here is not to think in rigid terms. Think of the actions and events in your favorite stories (someone rescues someone, someone betrays someone, someone murders someone...). Define what a story is. I think it's a collection of events influenced by characters and setting(s), and vice versa, that move toward a final resolution. A strategy game is also a collection of events influenced by characters and setting, which all moves toward a final resolution (in this case, a victory condition). The major difference is that the action palette for a story is FAR MORE COMPLICATED and complex (and also more interesting) than that of a strategy game.





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Just waiting for the mothership...

Edited by - Wavinator on August 14, 2000 10:12:21 PM

At the moment I don''t think that it is possible to control the randomness in that system. I would definitely like to see it, but I just don''t see that there is anything powerful enough to allow the player such freedom to create the story, and I don''t think there is enough strictness then to stop the world from erupting into complete chaos.

This would be great if they could actually do it, but I don''t think that the game would be any good (story wise) if you were to allow the player to take obvious and boring paths... I say, just give them a choice and let them make their decision that affects the game, but have it run along some resonably predefined story.

-Chris Bennett ("Insanity" of Dwarfsoft)

Check our site:
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