I''m tossing out an idea that could be considered a way to replace MP, mainly just to have it torn apart, so that perhaps we can develop this into something interesting. Anyways, we all know why MP exists in old-school RPGs. To keep any given player from using his skills too much. And, more often then not, sleep seems to be the only fix to it''s deficit. So, lets get to the main idea behind MP, exhaustion. So, for naming purposes, I''m calling it Stamina and Vitality, but maybe it can be called Breath or whatever. Stamina is a short term limitor, and Vitality is a long term limitor. For display purposes, it''d probably work just fine showing it at a percentage, since my idea needs some fine precision. The basic idea, is that every possible action that would have a cost, should instead have two costs, one for it''s Stamina cose and one for its Vitality cost. Run around, lose stamina and a bit of vitality. Swing your sword, lose stamina, and a touch of vitality. Cast a magic spell, lose barely any stamina, but drain yourself of vitality. That is to say, Magic actions would primarily drain from Vitality, while physical actions primarily drain from Stamina, but they should drain from both regardless. Stamina should recover with basic rest. (easy, sit down, drink some water) Vitality should only recover with sleep or heavy heating. Now, the limitations. I''d allow for overspending, I.E. using a 10 stamina skill when I only have 4 left, but I should be penalized for running negative. When Stamina runs negative, I''m temporarily exhausted and need a halftime. Can''t do anything that requires standing or moving. When Vitality runs negative, I lose consciousness. Now, I''m technically asleep, so it''ll recover, but we all know how dangerous sleeping on the battlefield can be. So, my angle is that theres no magical essense behind magic, but I''m spending from my own bodily energy. Magically setting someone on fire would consume as much energy as running around cutting up Imps all morning. Applications: PNPRPGs, Muds, old school Ultima or Might and Magic types. Perhaps an RPG where the focus is nomadic movement, since having to rest and sleep would get you left behind. Drawbacks: So far, I think the Sleep/Eat recovery on Vitality might be weird, perhaps we''d need subvariables to say, well, I''ve eaten too much, so I can''t get any more Vitality from food, have to sleep to get back the rest. Anybody like? hate? want to insult me personally? Actually, don''t do that last one, its not very professional, just insult my idea.

That''s the approach taken by a number of RPGs. GURPS, Ars Magica (and some optional rules in Rolemaster) to only name a few I''ve played.

My personal opinion in the areas of stats are to keep it simple. Most games, for the sake of interface and enjoyment, need not be broken down into sub-groups.

I fear the day that I will have to keep a diety chart and food pyramid map to determine by recommended dietary intake for the day predating a battle. Games are good for many reasons - two of them being fun and enjoyment. Unfortunately, many of life''s little chores are not. Keep it simple, but most importantly: keep it fun.

So is vitality the equivalent of HP, as in it''s what goes down when somebody flogs you with a pointy stick, or does damage affect some other attribute? If taking damage is unrelated to vitality, then you are basically just renaming MP to something else.

I would normally just assume that the attribute is related to damage, as it''s called vitality, but as you stated, when you run out, you simply become unconcious. In order for this not to just be a variation on the MP system, magic cannot be the only thing that majorly affects it.

I think combining HP and MP into a single attribute would be extremely interesting (plus it could have an excuse to give wizards as many, if nor more, HP than fighters). This would require a LOT of balancing, but could be very entertaining.

The idea of the short-term stamina attribute could be considered good or annoying, depending on the type of game. I would love to see such a thing in a turn-based, Final Fantasy-style battle system, simply because I haven''t seen it done before (well, at least not done well). In a real-time deal with no separate battle system, however, not being able to do things just because you ran all the way to town would be extremely annoying (this happened a lot in Morrowind).

I also like the idea of overspending, but I think I like the way ADOM does it better. In it, you had MP and HP - and when you ran out of MP, you started using HP to cast spells instead, and could potentially kill yourself if you weren''t careful.

And a comment on eating/sleeping/etc. I generally do not enjoy these activities because they are not fun (well, eating can be enjoyable in real life, but this isn''t real life and you can''t taste digital food). I do, however, accept them as a mechanic to recover after a large battle (or something similar). I wouldn''t enjoy a game where these are key parts of the gameplay. A lot of people could (and probably will) argue for immersiveness, but if it''s not fun, I generally don''t want to see it in a game.

Hmm... sorry to shoot down all your ideas like that, but hopefully you got somethin positive out of it. I''d like to read a good counter to my rambling.

-Anonymous Poster

Well, I was actually thinking that HP would stand separate, with 0 being death. But yes, taking hits from weapons would and probably should detract from all three meters. Like, equipping some plate armor would resist damage, but you could still have the wind knocked out of you. Equipping a padded armor would do good to save you from blows to stamina, but probably have some other disadvantage.

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That''s the approach taken by a number of RPGs. GURPS, Ars Magica (and some optional rules in Rolemaster) to only name a few I''ve played.

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I guess I missed those.

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I fear the day that I will have to keep a diety chart and food pyramid map to determine by recommended dietary intake for the day predating a battle. Games are good for many reasons - two of them being fun and enjoyment. Unfortunately, many of life''s little chores are not. Keep it simple, but most importantly: keep it fun.

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I can''t disagree there. Certainly would be too much of a hassle, but I figure keeping the counters hidden and only notifying the player by a terse message "I''m hungry." or screen icon would simplify that. "I''m not hungry." "I''m stuffed, no more food." "I''m sleepy." "I''m too wired, can''t sleep." Going into what types of food you can eat is really more of a The Sims deal.

First off, I'd love to see a replacement for the standard MP system. I like playing magical types, but MP makes things harder. This is not a raw power issue. I'm sure people have noticed that in quite a few games you can do just as much with physical attacks as magical ones. Sometimes, the physical attacks do even more. I remember in Final Fantasy, my most damaging character was the upgraded Black Belt.
The problem is that with MP I'm reluctant to use spells, since I'm depleting a resource that's difficult to renew. This is especially true in dungeons. I have to make it through the whole thing not knowing how long it's going to be or when I'll be able to refuel. I know spells can help save my ass in a tight spot, so I'm reluctant to use them unless there's a pressing need. As a result, my mages spend a lot more time stabbing things than casting spells.
This problem is somewhat relieved in systems that allow easier recovery. Yes, mana potions help somewhat, but you're still using a depletable resource. Systems with continuous recovery are even better. In Dungeon Seige, stamina is used for spells and recovers more quickly than hp. Until picking healing spells, I'd cast a ton of status buffs while resting, since I didn't want to "waste" any stamina. Recovery only took a few minutes, but it was easy enough to run out in battles if you weren't careful. In short, how about smaller pools but faster recovery.
Another thing that would be nice is to spread these costs around. Right now only mages have to pay for their special abilities. Why can a mage only cast "Fire 1" a set number of times, but the fighter can use "Hyper-Dragon Slash" as often as they want? How about this... everyone has basic maneuvers they can do for little or no stamina cost, but the more special/powerful moves, raise the cost accordingly. The fighter would have his basic slash, but would have the option of pushing themselves if they wanted to use a frenzied or powered up attack. The mage's basic attack might be a simple flame dart, while their powered up attack might be a tidal wave of flames. The stamina cost for specials can be due to either: a) the maneuver is physically draining due to the amount of bodily energy put into it or b) the maneuver actually has a somewhat supernatural effect, but draws on the user's life force to manifest. This does depend on the systle of the game, but I think it would be kind of cool to see fighters with somewhat mystical attacks.

Now, getting back to Inmate's original idea...
It does look like you're basically giving the MP system a make over. Yes, concept-wise you're saying that they're spending body energy instead of magical energy. The thing is, you then go on to say that only magic tends to really deplete "vitality". Everything else has a minor effect at best, so how is this really different?
My suggestion is just don't have two separate costs. Here's how I'd rework it:

• Various activities are tiring. Performing them increases the characters "fatigue". I suggest not doing this for every action. While realistic, players will get frustrated if they keel over from exhaustion just from walking around.
  
• If you want to do the whole short-term/long-term thing, have two values, one for "quick fatigue", the other for "slow fatigue". When the character does gains fatigue, both values go up. However, let quick fatigue go down automatically over time, while slow fatigue requires rest.
  
• Let relative exhastion be based on fatigue divided by some character stat. This lets you make more resilient characters.
• If you're using the dual-fatigue option, mutiply the stat when figuring relative exhuastion for slow fatigue. This makes it so the character can get "winded" (high quick fatigue, low slow fatigue) and "weary" (low quick, high slow). Performing a single high energy action will raise quick fatigue, with slow fatigue increasing proportionally less. They'd recove quickly, but would be feeling the after effects for a while. On the other hand, repetitions of lower energy actions won't cause much quick fatigue. The character might even recover almost as fast as they gain it. However, the cummulative effect will gradual increase the character's long-tem/slow fatigue.
  
• Consider inflicting penalties based on relative exhaustion. While this does have the potential to get annoying, it does add another strategic element to the game. You might also want items that reduce these penalties. Imagine having a the character fight on despite exhaustion, possibly collapsing from exhaustion as their reserves are depleted.
  

[edited by - Shimeran on April 27, 2004 1:34:16 PM]

I always envisioned this sort of system(for stamina in general though it''d apply to magic too) as more of a "layered bar" than multiple meters. What I would do is have a maximum amount for when you''re healthy and fully rested. If you do something that''s taxing but will mostly "knock the wind out of you" (like sprinting) then the bar''s current level goes down, but your maximum will stay fairly high, only going down over a long period of time as all your work accumulates.

Then, if you wanted to get complicated, you could make recovery a process requiring several components: food, water, sleep, etc.

I think JA2 used something like what I described, but it only rarely became a significant issue in the game; your mercs'' stamina would go down and they''d need to sleep, but the penalties for staying up late weren''t very great(AFAIK no stats were affected) and there wasn''t any magic, just the occasional running and getting the wind knocked out from a few bullets so it was mostly a strategic inconvenience.

Instead of a value that has set bounds, what about a sort of timer? Basically, it would start at zero, and when you cast a spell, it would increase proportionally to the potency of the spell. The value would decrease back to zero over time, and you would only be able to cast if the value was at or below some specific value.

-Anonymous Poster

Yeah, there are plenty of options that can be toyed with. You''d need to describe what the timer represents though. Otherwise, it comes off as a variant MP system with fast recovery.
Another option I''ve seen is the "charge-up" option, where the power of a spell increase the more time spent cating it. Granted, this is more common in action games, but a variant could be adapted to rpgs, especially if you already have diffent times for various actions.
In one game design I have, the stuff of magic has been tainted with raw anger, so casting spells cause the caster to accumulate rage. In game terms, this means they could go berserk. In stroy terms, it provided a good dramatic element, as the mage will be trying to keep their rage from consuming them.
You could also use some kind of spell preparation system, possibly having spells stored in some kind of item. I''m not so keen on this idea because it bring us back to the limited resource problem. Not that that''s bad for the big effects. I just don''t like not being able to do anything much when the resources are gone.