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Non-essential gameplay should be made vital or dropped

Started by April 22, 2004 02:19 PM
30 comments, last by Wavinator 20 years, 9 months ago
quote:
Original post by TechnoGoth
Do you need a detialed person level view of planets? It would be a lot easier to have Low altitude flight system.


You''re right, this would be MUCH easier. Unfortunately, I have it in mind that since you can board enemy ships and explore ancient ruins with a mix of RPG and RTS gameplay, there needs to be planetary exploration. If for no other reason that for veracity and immersion.

The plants and creatures problem may get explained away somewhat with the story. Planets are being raided by Siegers, these lifeforce eating amorphous vampires. So it might help quell some of the expectation of a riot of life all over the place.

(btw, one theoretical approach I''d love to have the time to study would involve mixing animal body parts and procedural texture generation. Limbs, appendages, heads and body shapes THEORETICALLY could be animated seperately, the bounding region determined in advance, then algorithmically combined, maybe even using some sort of physics spring system for semi-realistic movement. ''Course, that''s pretty far out there...)

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Just waiting for the mothership...
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quote:
Original post by Iron Chef Carnage
Or you could have the cities and significant regions done in detail, and make the rest of the globe into a fractal landscape. You can tool around forever in the fractal deserts and mountains of Mars, but "mapped locations" would be nested at important points on the surface.



This would be my favorite approach. I''m thinking about a fractal terran generator with tweaks for rivers. In theory, you could add in large mesh objects like boulders and preformed overhanging cliffs to get the right feel. Morrowind appears to mix and match large mesh objects, even embedding them right into the ground mesh, without trouble. Then you''d add beacons to call out special locations which are mostly hand built. This way, if a player comes down on an official beacon, they know they''re landing at a special location, versus if they just cursor over any location on the mercator map of the planet, they''re landing on fractal terrain.

quote:

Desolate planets would be just the ticket for this sort of thing.


To the extent that you can drop off things like supply caches or portable factories, a desolate area could be just what you want as well. And they could link nicely into XP farming and resource raiding, as there would possibly have been others who would have thought of the same thing. Prefab structures that are randomly scattered over a fractally generated map could be a great way of encouraging exploration, and since they''re prefab you won''t really trip out if you visit next time and they''re gone.


quote:

Optimally, I''d like to see an area so big that you could travel around it for days and days and still not find all the neat stuff.


I could see a large, randomly generated planet having a few nice attractions: Random junk and lost cargo for salvage, minerals, specimens and hostile creatures if it bears life, strange storms of particles (part of the backstory), prefab and secret bases, and ancient ruins / caves / underground base entrances. Don''t be surprised if you come across a strange ship filled with eggs.


quote:

There was an old flight simulator called "A-10 Attack!" that had some 10,000 square miles of Germany mapped in. You could fly around forever, finding little "easter eggs" and following rivers around, but you''d never really have to deal with more than a little bit of it at a time for missions. There were whole cities (simplistic ones, obviously) and airfields that never factored into the game, but if you had a map of Germany you could figure out what they were and amuse yourself by bombing the hell out of them.


I like that these guys put effort into something like that, and rewarded you for wandering. What did they do when you reached the borders of Germany, though? In 1942 you get a message "leaving the mission area" which simply turns you back around. I know Terran Nova, which had a massive outdoor level, made you lose the mission if you were outside the bounds (lame). I like that in Morrowind if I choose to water walk into the ocean it just repeats the same textures endlessly and calls the area "wilderness." It''s a nice compromise.



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Just waiting for the mothership...
--------------------Just waiting for the mothership...
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quote:
Original post by liquiddark
Don't know if this will help any, but even on some modern tankers they require the use of vehicles to get from one end to the other. If your ship is large enough, this is an option as well. It might even add a dimension of time/fuel management to your sim.



I'm thinking of the Pillar of Autumn in Halo, where you can drive the jeep through the superstructure at the end.

Yeah, thanks for the reminder. Dreadnaughts and massive capital ships could could accomodate driving naturally.

PS: What did you mean by "rigid?"

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Just waiting for the mothership...

[edited by - wavinator on April 24, 2004 6:14:29 AM]
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quote:
Original post by clayasaurus
IMO, all gameplay you can get is essential.


This is an optimistic way to look at it. But I''m sure you''ve heard of games being criticized for having features that the reviewer claims were "tacked on." I''d hate to have that result.

But, sure, in general, the more fun stuff you can do, the better it is. The problem with your Duke Nukem example is that all of that stuff was right along the path of normal gameplay. You went into the restroom to kill a badguy, for instance, and the commodes just happened to be there. Now, if there was a completely seperate level with bonus gameplay beyond what you normally did in the game, that might be considered tacked on.


quote:
Original post by Madgap
You might want to check out http://anywherebb.com/noctis.html
You can explore virtually endless space, land on and explore randomly generated planets, some with vegetation and wildlife.



Thanks, I''m eager to check this out!



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Just waiting for the mothership...
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quote:
Original post by Wavinator
quote:
Original post by liquiddark
Don't know if this will help any, but even on some modern tankers they require the use of vehicles to get from one end to the other. If your ship is large enough, this is an option as well. It might even add a dimension of time/fuel management to your sim.



I'm thinking of the Pillar of Autumn in Halo, where you can drive the jeep through the superstructure at the end.

Yeah, thanks for the reminder. Dreadnaughts and massive capital ships could could accomodate driving naturally.

PS: What did you mean by "rigid?"

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Just waiting for the mothership...

[edited by - wavinator on April 24, 2004 6:14:29 AM]



This being a futuristic game I would hope that there is near instantious onboard ship travel. Afterall last thing I want to see is a message like "Raiders have boarded the ship it will take 30 minutes for reinforcments to drive to scene of the attack from the barracks." Then you also have to consider traffic jams and rush hour, when all is said and done what captain wants a 1 hour commute from their quarters to the bridge?


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[edited by - TechnoGoth on April 24, 2004 6:44:30 AM]
I''d say that for the vast majority of applications in space, you''d have some kind of mass-transit system, like Star Trek''s "Turbolift" system or Heinlein''s "Bounce Tubes". A monorail or something could be used to get from one end of the ship to another, and so you''d seldom be called upon to take the little golfcart thing any real distance. Driving the Warthog in the PoA was a unique circumstance; I doubt the Marines took the offroad assault vehicle through the ship to the mess hall every day.

Perhaps in the gravity-free, unpressurized sections of the ship, you could ride little hoverbikes or use a jetpack to get to maintenance hatches or access external panels for repair or on-the-fly upgrades, but unless something''s wrong with the primary transit system, Marines aren''t going to have to ride an APC to the location of a boarding action. Besides, they''d be spread out over the ship, like Stormtroopers on a Star Destroyer.

This sort of decision has to be made in close rapport with your ship designs. Will you have big rotating ships, or artificial gravity pumps, or masive stations with tens of thousands of crew members? The PoA was a massive military ship, basically a mobile base, barracks, communications center, colony ship, weapons platform and carrier rolled into one. I''m not sure a player will ever see something like that, but if they do, you''ll have to build it, with every water pipe, plasma conduit and airlock. Whew. Maybe you should do your modelling in AutoCAD.


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quote:
Original post by TechnoGoth
This being a futuristic game I would hope that there is near instantious onboard ship travel. Afterall last thing I want to see is a message like "Raiders have boarded the ship it will take 30 minutes for reinforcments to drive to scene of the attack from the barracks."



LOL! This would be, um, frustrating, yes.

quote:

Then you also have to consider traffic jams and rush hour, when all is said and done what captain wants a 1 hour commute from their quarters to the bridge?


Of course, what if you''re flying a generation ship that''s 12 miles long?

And no, I wouldn''t inflict such a thing on players.

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Just waiting for the mothership...
--------------------Just waiting for the mothership...
quote:
Original post by Iron Chef Carnage
This sort of decision has to be made in close rapport with your ship designs. Will you have big rotating ships, or artificial gravity pumps, or masive stations with tens of thousands of crew members? The PoA was a massive military ship, basically a mobile base, barracks, communications center, colony ship, weapons platform and carrier rolled into one. I''m not sure a player will ever see something like that, but if they do, you''ll have to build it, with every water pipe, plasma conduit and airlock. Whew. Maybe you should do your modelling in AutoCAD.


Hah! If anything like this ever shows up in game, it would have to be monstrously repetitive and strictly algorithmically generated. I''m not doing it by hand, that''s for sure!!!!!

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Just waiting for the mothership...
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quote:
Original post by Wavinator
PS: What did you mean by "rigid?"

By "rigid" I mean "accomodating only one style/method of play". If you have toys in your environment, give them enough behaviour & context to be toys. The combination of sweet cars, large & interesting levels, and very little meaningful ability to play with that combination in the aforementioned Interstate ''76 was an especially egregious example, but there are many more. KOTOR''s minigames are a bit maddening, too, especially given the swoop bike upgrade situation.

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No Excuses
quote:
Original post by liquiddark
By "rigid" I mean "accomodating only one style/method of play". If you have toys in your environment, give them enough behaviour & context to be toys. The combination of sweet cars, large & interesting levels, and very little meaningful ability to play with that combination in the aforementioned Interstate ''76 was an especially egregious example, but there are many more.


I agree with you on this. Halo''s Banshees and dogfighting are a bit like this for me, as they only appear on a few levels and don''t even exist in multiplayer. It''s alot of creative effort and joy restricted to a narrow purpose, and it''s frustrating.



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Just waiting for the mothership...
--------------------Just waiting for the mothership...

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