quote: Original post by AtypicalAlex

1) Dragons! The most over used creature in RPG history! In the same vein...

Hmmm, if you are going to use dragons, I suggest you try to reason why tou have one... I have a very good reason here

quote:
2) Elves, Dwarves, Trolls, Goblins, etc, etc. All of the "used-one-thousand-times-too-many" creatures.

Elves: I think these mystical creatures were a reason for defining fantasy. I say, you can''t do away with them altogether, but you could disperse them greatly through your game so that you only ever see 1 or 2 (remember, These races have been around for a LONG time more than humans. They are the watchers [From Fiest] and the old ones).

Dwarves: Dwarves are cool! Don''t knock em... Why do you think I don their race name in my handle?

Goblins? I suggest my idea: Use ''em, and use ''em to teach the player a lesson! Let the goblins charge forth in all their masses to overwhelm the supposed hero who slayeth without thought!

As for trolls: I don''t see too much use of these in RPG''s, but I haven''t played many

-Chris Bennett ("Insanity" of Dwarfsoft)

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As far as goblins go, I remember there was a discussion on here about ending goblin genocide...I had wanted to respond to it, but when I realized it was already pages and pages and pages long, I decided not to. I do have one thing to comment about that though:
I have played paper and pencil style RPGs before, and being the game designer I am, preferred being the DM. The furthest back I can remember ever even playing, I was DMing a game in which one of the main characters, a good NPC that aided the player, was a friendly and small goblin. Thought anyone following that line of discourse might like to hear that...

Now, as far as overcoming cliches go, you''ll have something innovative if you have a non-linear storyline and people you are competing with to save the day (that''s rather a good idea, one I hadn''t really thought of...although wouldn''t you end up teaming up with them? Unless they''re all loners, heh...) and another thing I always thought I''d like to do is to have more than one character you could play as, which were each well developed characters, and if you didn''t play one the other ones would still be in the world but acting independantly...

Maybe that might be how you want to do your rival thing, have three people you can choose from, and you play as the one you chose, competing against the other two to save the day. That would be cool, and it would add a whole new element to it.

As far as anything else goes, the prime thing is to be consistent in what you are doing, don''t skimp on details, and DON''T be stupid about the villain. In Zelda64 they practically introduce the villain by having Zelda point and whisper, "See that guy? He''s evil!" with Link going "Ohh...ok." and then setting out on a quest to eventually vanquish him.

The villain should be smart, have a reason for doing what he''s doing ("I felt like it" or "I''m crazy" don''t really cut it, I don''t think...) and the player should be able to understand his line of thought, while still finding him vile and cruel and deserving to die. The villain should of course be powerful, for the more dangerous he is, the more heroic his defeat. I''m annoyed as much by silly stupid villains as by silent, boring ones. Keep him interesting, but fearsome, and give him a whole character. Put some work into developing the villain; it''ll be worthwhile in the end.

- Hai, watashi no chichi no kuruma ga oishii deshita!
...or, in other words, "Yes, my dad's car was deliscious!"

Fireballs

The biggest cliche I see in CRPG''s, and pretty much any game every made, is use of generic animations to represent every single action. For example, in Fallout your character always has to reach out and fiddle with everything he uses, even when he''s just reading a sign. I mean, get real, do we really have to touch the sign to read it?

As for the rest, grab a seat because here we go:

1. All future societies are decrepit and corrupt.
2. All post-apocalyptic worlds are nothing but desert.
3. All heroes start off as everyday Joe Schmoe. Seriously, how many everyday losers are going to save the world?
4. Sword: the strongest weapon ever made.
5. Fists: even stronger than swords if used by a martial artist.
6. More often than not, magic users are secretive and shy. I mean, shit, if I could fling fireballs, EVERYONE would know about it.
7. Combat ALWAYS means fighting to the death. In real life, only people with a serious chemical imbalance ever fight to the death.
8. Party size limits. Does it really matter how many people you have following you? Party size should be limited only by how many people you can find to join you, not by some arbitrary number.
9. Animals give you money when killed. What the hell.
10. Humans are always the dominate species on the planet, despite the fact that the countryside is overrun by fifty-zillion creatures intent on destroying humanity.
11. Curative items are so common they must grow on trees. It would be more interesting if players actually had to work to find healing potions.
12. Nobody bats an eye when a sorcerer launches a nuclear deathball into a pack of vandals and forms a smoldering crater the size of Europe. "It''s just magic, no biggie."
13. This may be Daggerfall-specific, but the city guards never bother attacking werewolves or vagrants, especially when I''m out picking locked doors.
14. Likewise, werewolves and vagrants never attack the city guards. As a player, I seem to be the world''s only threat, despite the fact that I''m trying to SAVE it.
15. Is it just me, or does every game with a calendar use the Gregorian calendar?
16. Townsfolk don''t need to sleep. They just walk the streets day and night like zombies, repeating the same lines endlessly. ("BRAINS. BRAAAAINS.")
17. Elemental magic. I would love to see a spell system based on something other than Captain Planet.
18. Magic. To alleviate the elemental problem, you could just get rid of magic altogether and replace it with something that hasn''t been overdone for the past twenty years.
19. Anyone ever study xenology? Ever notice that aliens, regardless of origin, always look and act human? Even those that don''t look human still have human ethics. Let me set this straight: there are enough differences between Americans and Japanese, or humans and dolphins, that we would NEVER comprehend what an alien thinks. So, make your aliens truly alien.
20. Hit points. Magic points. Skill points. We''ve had this discussion before. Consider using something besides "points" to rate a character''s attributes.

Now, to make a shameless plug on what I think is the best RPG of all time purely for game mechanics, I point you to Fallout and Fallout 2. They have their shortcomings, but you couldn''t ask for a better example of what a non-cliched RPG should be.

Great posts, guys! Thanks a lot! Some of them were quite humerous, and I now have a general guideline to shape my game by. Thanks again, and keep them coming! Please! :->

uh

most people here are complaining about realism...not cliches. Well, what you''re posting are cliches, but lets be honest, most of what you apparently don''t want in a game has to be there.

Lets put strong monsters outside the first town so you can''t kill any of them, ok?

Lets start the character off with the strongest armor in the game so buying stuff is utterly pointless, ok?

anyone here actually PLAYED an RPG? heh...

The fact is that these cliches exist because they WORK. Don''t side-step them, or you''ll be original, and also have a very crappy game.

Ok, bad attitudes aside, Nevar''s right. Cliche''s are a very useful tool for providing the player with a familar and believable environment. Don''t overdo it though, or it''s just cheese. At the beginning of the game, use some cliche''s to get the player into the game in a familiar way, then when you feel the player is comfortable, throw her some curveballs.

Don''t throw out any ideas just because they''ve been used before.


Pax

One cliche that you could really do without is PROPHECIES!
If I had a nickel for every time I heard:
"Just when things get really crappy in the world a hero will come to save us from the great evil"
then i wouldn''t have to make games.

For once have a game where everyone in the world isn''t telling you that you are the chosen one. If you do have some great prophecy, make sure nobody thinks its your character.

If people in RPG world take their prophecies seriously like they say they do, then they''d think you a blashemer if you said you had come to fufill the prophecy.

By having a prophecy, from the start you know exactly how the game is going to end, which is no fun at all.

quote: Original post by Tom
6. More often than not, magic users are secretive and shy. I mean, shit, if I could fling fireballs, EVERYONE would know about it.

THAT is exactly why you are not a member of our society



The biggest cliché in games is the 'save the world'-cliché, you can't really avoid it either unless you want to make an RPG in which the main character's MAIN quest is 'get some strawberries for gramps' (you could ofcourse make it extremely difficult and have the main char inadvertedly save the world while trying to obtain those strawberries )

You CAN use cliché's, it is virtually impossible NOT to, but you can give them nice twists: A land/world is ruled by tyrants who 'justify' there actions with 'We are protecting you...' (while nobody believes it) and when the main char FINALLY defeats the last of the tyrants it turns out the powerfull 'tyrants' really WERE protecting everybody. This can turn everybody against the main char (Wow I just can't stop ) which adds a real roleplaying element since the char mustn't just kill/disable the new evil, he/she also has to regain the trust of the population (AAAAARRRRGGHHH Cliché again)

I'll just stop now....

[EDIT]
By the way, the fact that monsters nearer to the town are weaker could also be caused by the city guard protecting the town.
[/EDIT]

Gyzmo
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Edited by - Gyzmo on August 8, 2000 3:04:04 PM

quote: Original post by Gyzmo

You CAN use cliché''s, it is virtually impossible NOT to, but you can give them nice twists: A land/world is ruled by tyrants who ''justify'' there actions with ''We are protecting you...'' (while nobody believes it) and when the main char FINALLY defeats the last of the tyrants it turns out the powerfull ''tyrants'' really WERE protecting everybody. This can turn everybody against the main char (Wow I just can''t stop ) which adds a real roleplaying element since the char mustn''t just kill/disable the new evil, he/she also has to regain the trust of the population (AAAAARRRRGGHHH Cliché again)

Panzer Dragoon Saga. And that''s just the start of it.

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