It''s interesting how there''re levels and levels of maturity. I write fanfiction, which is generally given a movie-style rating by the author: G, PG, PG-13, PG-15/R, NC-17. So one of the things I had to do was learn how to determine what rating each story should be given. So far in this thread we seem to be mostly discussing R-level elements: swearwords, nudity, sex, violence/death, and "adult themes", such as homosexuality, drugs, gangs, insanity, slavery (hmm, you know I can''t offhand think of a single game that had slavery in it...). There is also the NC-17 level of elements to consider: rape, torture, and other forms of abuse, suicide, BDSM and other assorted kinks, explicit sex. Games seem to be mostly stuck in the pg-13 and under category like comics were in the old days of McCarthyism and the Comic Code (Ick). American comics have emerged from the shadow of the code and you can now find a decent selection at every rating level, but American computer games seem to be a bit more stuck, barely breaking into the R level. (Of course you can find Japanese computer games at every level if you don''t mind hentai, but most of them never get translated into English.) This is because the american audience for computer games is percieved to be mostly under 18 - and this perception is probably correct. It''s kind of a chicken-and-egg problem - you have to have a mature audience to monetarily support the production of mature games, but you have to have mature games to attract a mature audience and get them into the habit of looking for mature games to buy.

Mature games, truly "meant for adults" games are generally bad sellres. Why? Because demographics would like to say, or at least corporate logic would like to say, that kids play games. The problem might be akin to the movie industry, in at least one sense:

There is no ''middle'' rating. Back in the day, we had G, PG, R. Then Indiana Jones came along and they literally created the PG-13 rating to accommodate it.

Right now I see the same basic lack of rating flexibility in games.
E, T, M. And the T is what a good majority of developers will shoot for, because there are often only a FEW elements that need to be removed from most M games to get the higher-selling rating.

Medal of Honor: Allied Assault being a good show of capitalistic greed in gaming. They managed to cut out ''mature'' things like Blood effects and in the process, dropped their rating to T so they could hook the younger gamers.

The ESRB rating system is skewed out of proportion. A kid can go watch a movie like Temple of Doom which features some pretty gorey realistic imagery, but not be able to pick up a game like Quake3 which features lighter imagery in a much more ''comic'' sense. In fact, comparing the film ratings to ESRB ratings is almost comedic when you look at what a teenager can legally see being acted out by real people, then look at what a teenager can''t legally PLAY involving polygonal models.

The only game I''ve played that comes to mind in the past few years that truly, without question, DESERVED a ''Mature'' rating is Max Payne 2. Nudity, sexuality, Gore, Verbal Profanity, the game had it all and it really made the game stick out in my mind. Every time I play through it and I hear a character shout "YOU CAN''T FUCKING GET AWAY YOU STUPID FUCK" at me, I almost get shot because I''m so shocked at hearing that coming from a game.

- It''s a life''s work

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Recently the most mature section of an ''adult themed'' game that I''ve seen recently is the abattoir section in Max Payne from the cut-scene, the clever use of the comic strip, and the realism of the ''use'' of the building.

Some very good points are being raised here (ps. did you know that the writer / creator of the Gabriel Knight series is a woman?)

Havnt read all the posts, so I may be repeating.

I would say that mature games are no different from mature movies. You can release a movie that is just blood, guts, and titties without any underlying plot, but chances are its not going to appeal to many people. I would class mature movies as something like Training day. It still has blood, guts, and titties, but thier not the main focus, they just help add to the seriousness of the setting.
Same as games, I do not class ''panty raider 2'' or ''Bmx-xxx'' as mature games. I do class games such as (as mentioned) Max Payne 2 as mature, or to some limited extent the Silent Hill games as mature, since they dicuss TOPICS that are mature.

I wonder if the adventure game genre would be a good choice for making a mature game that didn''t feature ludicrous violence?

quote:

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Original post by Ketchaval
I wonder if the adventure game genre would be a good choice for making a mature game that didn''t feature ludicrous violence?

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Oh Larry, why are they re-viving then destroying your legacy? My memories of you are so fond.

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quote:

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Original post by sunandshadow
(hmm, you know I can''t offhand think of a single game that had slavery in it...).

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In RPGs, at least Fallout 2, Planescape:Torment and Morrowind had it in a fairly in-your-face manner. Fallout 2 you could even become a slaver yourself. I want to say there''s slavery in EverQuest as well, but it''s been a long time since I''ve played. Sometimes in RPGs, slavery is just background noise, such as Arcanum. Slavery only really contributes to the maturity level of a game when it become a litmus test for the ethical behaviour of the character. Torment was really good/bad about that. Seriously, I just didn''t have it in me to select some options in that game even with save/reload at my fingertips.

On the less personal front, empire management sims often have slavery; Civilization, for example. Every American Civil War sim implicitly involves slavery in some way. Slavery in this context usually wouldn''t contribute to the maturity level of a game. It''s usually just matter of fact; this is what things were like back then.