Well, I guess I'll just through out some idea of how to get people to work together in MMO setting.
1) Link-Combos : like chrono trigger. Having two or more characters perform a special move or cast spell in sequence causes a new more powerful spell to be cast. ie Paladin performs “righteous impale” and the monk casts “divine confinement”, which combine together to cause “crucifixion of the savior”.
2) Eliminate Jack of all Trades characters : Basically you prevent a single character from being able to do everything. Although I personally dislike this idea since I like to play as a Jack of all Trades. You could limit the player to one set of skills and career. So Maybe they play as a Paladin - blacksmith. Being a blacksmith they can forge weapons and armor as well as repair them. Another player plays as a Ranger - Alchemist, which means they can convert base metals into alloys as well as brew potions. A third player plays as a Monk – sage, which means they can enchant non magical items, and identify items.
Thus all three characters are needed to make powerful items. So if a blacksmith wants make an “Electrum Shield of Dragons Bane”, they need a supply of Electrum as well as a sage to perform the enchantment. This is where the social economy into a play hopeful people would set up business to supply those services to other players, so that the player doesn’t have to bother random strangers to enchant their items or make them some electrum.
3)Mystical Currency : The idea is you make a resource that can’t be found and yet is needed by all players. Mystical Currency would be used to create magical items, as well as power spells. So a wizard wants to cast a spell they need enough mystical currency. Think of it as mana that can be traded to other players. The Mystical currency could only be created by a single class called Nix who also has no use for it, Nix don’t need Mystical Currency to cast spells and can’t use magic items. They could obtain MC by extracting it from mystical sources around the world. So basically you end up with a situation where one small group of characters effectively controls the games entire economy and all other players need them in order prosper.
Just some ideas I had.
-----------------------------------------------------
Writer, Programer, Cook, I'm a Jack of all Trades
Current Design project
Chaos Factor Design Document
[edited by - TechnoGoth on February 4, 2004 5:45:31 PM]
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Would people build their own story?
2,939
February 04, 2004 04:44 PM
Writing Blog: The Aspiring Writer
Novels:
Legacy - Black Prince Saga Book One - By Alexander Ballard (Free this week)
February 04, 2004 06:52 PM
quote:
Original post by TechnoGoth
Well, I guess I'll just through out some idea of how to get people to work together in MMO setting.
1) Link-Combos : like chrono trigger. Having two or more characters perform a special move or cast spell in sequence causes a new more powerful spell to be cast. ie Paladin performs “righteous impale” and the monk casts “divine confinement”, which combine together to cause “crucifixion of the savior”.
2) Eliminate Jack of all Trades characters : Basically you prevent a single character from being able to do everything. Although I personally dislike this idea since I like to play as a Jack of all Trades. You could limit the player to one set of skills and career. So Maybe they play as a Paladin - blacksmith. Being a blacksmith they can forge weapons and armor as well as repair them. Another player plays as a Ranger - Alchemist, which means they can convert base metals into alloys as well as brew potions. A third player plays as a Monk – sage, which means they can enchant non magical items, and identify items.
Thus all three characters are needed to make powerful items. So if a blacksmith wants make an “Electrum Shield of Dragons Bane”, they need a supply of Electrum as well as a sage to perform the enchantment. This is where the social economy into a play hopeful people would set up business to supply those services to other players, so that the player doesn’t have to bother random strangers to enchant their items or make them some electrum.
3)Mystical Currency : The idea is you make a resource that can’t be found and yet is needed by all players. Mystical Currency would be used to create magical items, as well as power spells. So a wizard wants to cast a spell they need enough mystical currency. Think of it as mana that can be traded to other players. The Mystical currency could only be created by a single class called Nix who also has no use for it, Nix don’t need Mystical Currency to cast spells and can’t use magic items. They could obtain MC by extracting it from mystical sources around the world. So basically you end up with a situation where one small group of characters effectively controls the games entire economy and all other players need them in order prosper.
Just some ideas I had.
-----------------------------------------------------
Writer, Programer, Cook, I'm a Jack of all Trades
Current Design project
Chaos Factor Design Document
[edited by - TechnoGoth on February 4, 2004 5:45:31 PM]
All very good ideas in my opinion, especially the jack of all trades thing, expecially if you make all things moderatly dependant on others (instead of the classic fighters need healers, and thats it). I still dont know if this would bring people together on a large scale.
There needs to be somthing that makes these large scale wars neccisary, except in a non-interfearing way. I just dont think that many people would do it for a bit of loot, or even just for power that often.
[edited by - MTT on February 4, 2004 7:57:21 PM]
--------------------------http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/icons/icon51.gif ... Hammer time
2,939
February 04, 2004 09:02 PM
hmmm, Well in order to have wars you need two main factors.
1)Nationalisim
2)Contested Resources
1)Nationalisim - How do you invoke this in players in a virtual world? Thats a difficult question in order to do it you have to get the player to associate with a particular faction or city. To start off each city would have to be diffrent. There could also be some kind of benefits for having citizen ship in that city. Such as voting on new laws, owning property, access to city specific items and locations. There could even be a system of social hierachy within each city.
All this would hopefully inspire loyalty to the city. Thus the player would spend a great deal of time there and if the city put out call for volunteers to fight in the war people would volunteer. You also need some kind of rewards and incentive to fight in this war for the player. Honor could be one incentive espically if honor is difficult to obtain in normal circumstances. Thus players would fight in to gain honor.
2)Contested Resources - There must be something in dispute for to cities to goto war something that both want and only one can have. Thus the two sides can fight for it or defend it. The resources also has to make a diffrence to the city that controls it. This would work with my Idea of Mystic Currency. Mystical Sources or Spirt wells, would be of strategic importance to cities. Since the spirt wells are where Nix can create mystical currency, as such cities would guard these jelously. Since the amount Mystical Curreny available to a city will determine how powerful it is and how much magic the inhabitents would have access. As such I could see cities fighting over these seizing them from other cities and defending them when other cities attack.
I could even see this leading to growth in power of an agressive city, while at the same time leading to the downfall and abadonment of weaker ones.
-----------------------------------------------------
Writer, Programer, Cook, I''m a Jack of all Trades
Current Design project
Chaos Factor Design Document
1)Nationalisim
2)Contested Resources
1)Nationalisim - How do you invoke this in players in a virtual world? Thats a difficult question in order to do it you have to get the player to associate with a particular faction or city. To start off each city would have to be diffrent. There could also be some kind of benefits for having citizen ship in that city. Such as voting on new laws, owning property, access to city specific items and locations. There could even be a system of social hierachy within each city.
All this would hopefully inspire loyalty to the city. Thus the player would spend a great deal of time there and if the city put out call for volunteers to fight in the war people would volunteer. You also need some kind of rewards and incentive to fight in this war for the player. Honor could be one incentive espically if honor is difficult to obtain in normal circumstances. Thus players would fight in to gain honor.
2)Contested Resources - There must be something in dispute for to cities to goto war something that both want and only one can have. Thus the two sides can fight for it or defend it. The resources also has to make a diffrence to the city that controls it. This would work with my Idea of Mystic Currency. Mystical Sources or Spirt wells, would be of strategic importance to cities. Since the spirt wells are where Nix can create mystical currency, as such cities would guard these jelously. Since the amount Mystical Curreny available to a city will determine how powerful it is and how much magic the inhabitents would have access. As such I could see cities fighting over these seizing them from other cities and defending them when other cities attack.
I could even see this leading to growth in power of an agressive city, while at the same time leading to the downfall and abadonment of weaker ones.
-----------------------------------------------------
Writer, Programer, Cook, I''m a Jack of all Trades
Current Design project
Chaos Factor Design Document
Writing Blog: The Aspiring Writer
Novels:
Legacy - Black Prince Saga Book One - By Alexander Ballard (Free this week)
443
February 05, 2004 02:29 PM
another great reason for war is religion. at it''s easiest-to-implement level, you can have a "good" religion and an "evil" religion, and give their followers bonuses for fighting for the cause, and penalties for not doing their part. you could also include many religions, and while none may be truly good or truly evil, they can have their own reasons for disliking each other (whether those reasons are valid or not).
--- krez ([email="krez_AT_optonline_DOT_net"]krez_AT_optonline_DOT_net[/email])
1,845
February 05, 2004 05:07 PM
Yeah, a hard-wired alliance system would be just the ticket. Anyone play Magic: The Gathering? There are five elemental affinities arrayed in a ciruit: white, blue, black, red and green. They are allied with their adjacent neighbors, and opposed to the other two. So white is allied with blue and green, but blue and green are opposed. Just replace each of those with a faction, and you're set. You get points for fighting enemies, helping allies, and mediating between your two friendly parties (or espousing trouble between your allied enemies). You lose points for the opposite.
The important thing to remember when defining a world with organized "ethics" is that players look to the game design for moral guidance. Nobody will want to turn down a chance to loot some good gear just because the character wearing it is technically on their side. If you want them to do the right thing, you have to make it worth their while. True Crime used a Good Cop/Bad Cop meter, and certain story paths were only available to Good Cops. Tactics Ogre restricted available classes based on character's alignment, which was rooted in conduct. If you give each player an "honor" meter or something, and let them raise levels or gain equipment or attain rank based on that, then they'll work harder to be good, and what's more, the strongest characters will be those that have done the best role-playing.
Here's an idea: Instead of a conventional levelling system, let players get access to "training levels". As an initiate into the White Order, a player can have a few stat upgrades and a level of "training" in a given number of skills. So I can boost my strength and dexterity, and take up archery and swordplay. After a certain amount of dedicated service, I reach an honor rating of 5. I've participated in two holy wars and slain two Black players and a Red one, without any transgressions. Now, I'm recognized as an asset, and can gain access to better training, so I jack my swordplay another notch and increase my endurance. What's more, I now have access to the "soldier" armory, so I can be issued a better set of gear at little or no cost to myself. At 10, 25, 50, 100, 250, 500, 1000, etc. points, I can upgrade again. At the higher levels, perhaps you can commission custom gear to be built for you.
So if you see a level 8 Paladin, you know he's been around and done some serious good for the White, and wreaked some havoc with its enemies. Also, you can be reasonably sure that if you're a blue player and you need some help, he'll back you up rather than sticking a knife in your ribs. If you need help fighting against a red guy, he'll help you kill him. If you're duelling with a green guy, he'll probably try to convince you guys to make nice.
It is conducive to role-playing, it might lead to an innovative levelling system, and it helps assure that large factions will behave in a somewhat homogeneous manner.
[edited by - Iron Chef Carnage on February 5, 2004 6:09:08 PM]
The important thing to remember when defining a world with organized "ethics" is that players look to the game design for moral guidance. Nobody will want to turn down a chance to loot some good gear just because the character wearing it is technically on their side. If you want them to do the right thing, you have to make it worth their while. True Crime used a Good Cop/Bad Cop meter, and certain story paths were only available to Good Cops. Tactics Ogre restricted available classes based on character's alignment, which was rooted in conduct. If you give each player an "honor" meter or something, and let them raise levels or gain equipment or attain rank based on that, then they'll work harder to be good, and what's more, the strongest characters will be those that have done the best role-playing.
Here's an idea: Instead of a conventional levelling system, let players get access to "training levels". As an initiate into the White Order, a player can have a few stat upgrades and a level of "training" in a given number of skills. So I can boost my strength and dexterity, and take up archery and swordplay. After a certain amount of dedicated service, I reach an honor rating of 5. I've participated in two holy wars and slain two Black players and a Red one, without any transgressions. Now, I'm recognized as an asset, and can gain access to better training, so I jack my swordplay another notch and increase my endurance. What's more, I now have access to the "soldier" armory, so I can be issued a better set of gear at little or no cost to myself. At 10, 25, 50, 100, 250, 500, 1000, etc. points, I can upgrade again. At the higher levels, perhaps you can commission custom gear to be built for you.
So if you see a level 8 Paladin, you know he's been around and done some serious good for the White, and wreaked some havoc with its enemies. Also, you can be reasonably sure that if you're a blue player and you need some help, he'll back you up rather than sticking a knife in your ribs. If you need help fighting against a red guy, he'll help you kill him. If you're duelling with a green guy, he'll probably try to convince you guys to make nice.
It is conducive to role-playing, it might lead to an innovative levelling system, and it helps assure that large factions will behave in a somewhat homogeneous manner.
[edited by - Iron Chef Carnage on February 5, 2004 6:09:08 PM]
2,939
February 05, 2004 07:45 PM
sounds good, Although I wouldn't hard wire the alleginces I'd allow them to change over time based on the actions of the members of those factions, of course the game would being with designer chosen alleginces but these could change over time. For instance white and blue are allies at the start. However as time goes on blue players might start to take advantage of white players, some fights break out, there is a disupute between who should own a soul well and so on. Eventually the alliance crumbles and war is declared between white and blue. Like wise peace and new alliances could be formed.
One thing that would be intersting is if each faction has its own set of belifs and morals. This also could an additonal level of intrest in regards to the fact what does it mean to be a good White or an evil white. Does being evil in the eyes of your faction cause you to be expelled? Or are the two sub factions with in a single faction one "good" the other "evil"?
I also like the idea of as you move up in ranks in a faction you gain access to more of the factions resources. ie once you've reached level 3 in the warrior faction you obtain the rank of guard, your issued one pike or crossbow, a helmet and a breast plate, as well one free armor repair each week. Then as you move up enough say to level 5 you can choose to join an order with in the faction. Each order could have is own subset of skills and rare equipment that the player can choose to take each time they move up an honor rank. Examples of orders for the white faction could be, templer, monk, Inquistor.
I also like the notion that character development is directly linked to your achivements with in a faction. Perhaps there could be some character development outside of faction advancement but very little. For instance at level 1 your max strength is 4 your starting strength is 2 so you can increase your strength by at most 2 points through various strength increasing exercises. Then once you've gained enough of honor you become a level 2 in your faction, which gives you a 2 training sessions, these training session can be used for various things, such as increasing stat maximums, learning a new skill, improve an existing skill, or learning a new ability.
-----------------------------------------------------
Writer, Programer, Cook, I'm a Jack of all Trades
Current Design project
Chaos Factor Design Document
[edited by - TechnoGoth on February 5, 2004 10:47:33 PM]
One thing that would be intersting is if each faction has its own set of belifs and morals. This also could an additonal level of intrest in regards to the fact what does it mean to be a good White or an evil white. Does being evil in the eyes of your faction cause you to be expelled? Or are the two sub factions with in a single faction one "good" the other "evil"?
I also like the idea of as you move up in ranks in a faction you gain access to more of the factions resources. ie once you've reached level 3 in the warrior faction you obtain the rank of guard, your issued one pike or crossbow, a helmet and a breast plate, as well one free armor repair each week. Then as you move up enough say to level 5 you can choose to join an order with in the faction. Each order could have is own subset of skills and rare equipment that the player can choose to take each time they move up an honor rank. Examples of orders for the white faction could be, templer, monk, Inquistor.
I also like the notion that character development is directly linked to your achivements with in a faction. Perhaps there could be some character development outside of faction advancement but very little. For instance at level 1 your max strength is 4 your starting strength is 2 so you can increase your strength by at most 2 points through various strength increasing exercises. Then once you've gained enough of honor you become a level 2 in your faction, which gives you a 2 training sessions, these training session can be used for various things, such as increasing stat maximums, learning a new skill, improve an existing skill, or learning a new ability.
-----------------------------------------------------
Writer, Programer, Cook, I'm a Jack of all Trades
Current Design project
Chaos Factor Design Document
[edited by - TechnoGoth on February 5, 2004 10:47:33 PM]
Writing Blog: The Aspiring Writer
Novels:
Legacy - Black Prince Saga Book One - By Alexander Ballard (Free this week)
584
February 05, 2004 08:08 PM
I think a bit of the problem of getting players/factions to engage in large-scale events is because people don't have a "goal".
Imagine a regular RTS; there you each mission have a specific goal (one faction terminates the other) to get the reward (learn the rest of the story and play the next mission). Compare this with a MMORPG, people don't have any definite goal there, they keep slaying mobs and are happy with that. They don't need to do anything special to progress.
Even if the designer provided certain factions and told the followers of each faction to hate each other and kill members of the other factions on sight, it wouldn't really matter. There's no "carrot" in completely eradicating one of the other factions, what does that accomplish? Besides, how much fun would it be killing of members of a faction when you know they'll just respawn later..it's kindof fighting the impossible since people don't stay dead. And even _if_ it somehow was possible to kill off a faction, what's the reward?
All summed up, I think large groups of people in MMORPG's need to have a common goal they are willing to fight for to get large scale interaction (i.e. war)
-Luctus
Statisticly seen, most things happens to other people.
[Mail]
[edited by - Luctus on February 5, 2004 9:10:14 PM]
Imagine a regular RTS; there you each mission have a specific goal (one faction terminates the other) to get the reward (learn the rest of the story and play the next mission). Compare this with a MMORPG, people don't have any definite goal there, they keep slaying mobs and are happy with that. They don't need to do anything special to progress.
Even if the designer provided certain factions and told the followers of each faction to hate each other and kill members of the other factions on sight, it wouldn't really matter. There's no "carrot" in completely eradicating one of the other factions, what does that accomplish? Besides, how much fun would it be killing of members of a faction when you know they'll just respawn later..it's kindof fighting the impossible since people don't stay dead. And even _if_ it somehow was possible to kill off a faction, what's the reward?
All summed up, I think large groups of people in MMORPG's need to have a common goal they are willing to fight for to get large scale interaction (i.e. war)
-Luctus
Statisticly seen, most things happens to other people.
[Mail]
[edited by - Luctus on February 5, 2004 9:10:14 PM]
-LuctusIn the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move - Douglas Adams
1,845
February 08, 2004 10:06 PM
Well, why not allow conscription? In the RTS, you have your riflemen, firebats and light artillery all lined up in your base, and when you get enough you go zipping off to the other base and try to smash it. But before you "build" those units, the people were already there, right? You didn''t clone up a vat of archers or anything, you recruited them. So, every once in a while the call goes out for "volunteers". You get a big fat stipend, depending on your rank, and you get a share of honor. Honor and cash for participation, honor and medals for excellence.
So, a big build-up comes, and the game starts "building" units (to stick with the RTS analogy). You go to the nearest recruiter, and sign on for a three-hour tour. You get in the APC, and are transported to the field of battle. The trumpet blows, the doors swing wide, and you and the other representatives of your faction hop out into the refreshing shade of a cloud of arrows. You do your best, and when the smoke clears you take stock of what was achieved. The walls fell or stood, the monster died or fled, your forces were routed or victorious.
You collect your pay, minus the cost of any healing/resurrection you required, see that your honor and reputation have been adjusted in accordance with your conduct, and head back to town to blow your dole on a new sword and some rum. Then you''re broke again, so you adventure a little, sell some monster pelts, and visit the training facility. A week or so later, you get an e-mail saying that a dragon/invading army/terrorist group is devouring/pillaging/sabotaging your livestock/city/space program, and you log on, sign up, and get a few more notches on your halberd/bow/rifle.
Unified goal, tangible benefits, voluntary cooperation. All in keeping with the game world and the levelling system, so nobody''s time is wasted and there''s neither motivation nor impunity for griefing. Players could even go freelance, and sign up for whatever side is paying more. They''d get "mercenary" class reputations, and anyone will hire them as footsoldiers and pay them well for their highly qualified services, but they''ll never gain the benefits of working for one specific faction.
So, a big build-up comes, and the game starts "building" units (to stick with the RTS analogy). You go to the nearest recruiter, and sign on for a three-hour tour. You get in the APC, and are transported to the field of battle. The trumpet blows, the doors swing wide, and you and the other representatives of your faction hop out into the refreshing shade of a cloud of arrows. You do your best, and when the smoke clears you take stock of what was achieved. The walls fell or stood, the monster died or fled, your forces were routed or victorious.
You collect your pay, minus the cost of any healing/resurrection you required, see that your honor and reputation have been adjusted in accordance with your conduct, and head back to town to blow your dole on a new sword and some rum. Then you''re broke again, so you adventure a little, sell some monster pelts, and visit the training facility. A week or so later, you get an e-mail saying that a dragon/invading army/terrorist group is devouring/pillaging/sabotaging your livestock/city/space program, and you log on, sign up, and get a few more notches on your halberd/bow/rifle.
Unified goal, tangible benefits, voluntary cooperation. All in keeping with the game world and the levelling system, so nobody''s time is wasted and there''s neither motivation nor impunity for griefing. Players could even go freelance, and sign up for whatever side is paying more. They''d get "mercenary" class reputations, and anyone will hire them as footsoldiers and pay them well for their highly qualified services, but they''ll never gain the benefits of working for one specific faction.
216
February 11, 2004 10:18 AM
Sorry but Ive skimmed over a lot of the previous posts that didnt seem on point.
The original question was about roleplay freedom, correct?
Its funny that people say that this wouldnt work because thats what Raph, the lead designer of SWG has tried to exactly. That is give players the freedom to roleplay and create their own story and not spoonfeed it to them.
Ironically, he did this with a game that has arguably one of the best stories to be spoonfed (star wars).
There are two types of MMORPGers. The ones that want the shackles taken off and want to create their own world, and the ones that want to immerse themselves in someone elses world. While it may seem easy to cater to both (build the world then if people want to make their own storyline they can do their own thing)...its not.
Looking at the standard MMO, most people fall into the latter category. And I dont blame them. You''re paying hefty fees (a computer, the inital discs, the monthly subscription) so why not get something for it. I mean these are professional artists and writers, correct? And the idea is to have them take you away, right?
Ive been a part of several tight-knit rp and larp communities that can do this correctly, but the average person doesnt have the time, nor the inclination to do most of the "work" themselves.
Just my 2cp.
Alfred Norris, VoodooFusion Studios
Team Lead - CONFLICT: Omega
Conflict Omega MMO RPG RTS FPS[\url]
The original question was about roleplay freedom, correct?
Its funny that people say that this wouldnt work because thats what Raph, the lead designer of SWG has tried to exactly. That is give players the freedom to roleplay and create their own story and not spoonfeed it to them.
Ironically, he did this with a game that has arguably one of the best stories to be spoonfed (star wars).
There are two types of MMORPGers. The ones that want the shackles taken off and want to create their own world, and the ones that want to immerse themselves in someone elses world. While it may seem easy to cater to both (build the world then if people want to make their own storyline they can do their own thing)...its not.
Looking at the standard MMO, most people fall into the latter category. And I dont blame them. You''re paying hefty fees (a computer, the inital discs, the monthly subscription) so why not get something for it. I mean these are professional artists and writers, correct? And the idea is to have them take you away, right?
Ive been a part of several tight-knit rp and larp communities that can do this correctly, but the average person doesnt have the time, nor the inclination to do most of the "work" themselves.
Just my 2cp.
Alfred Norris, VoodooFusion Studios
Team Lead - CONFLICT: Omega
Conflict Omega MMO RPG RTS FPS[\url]
Alfred Norris, VoodooFusion StudiosTeam Lead - CONFLICT: Omega A Post-Apocalyptic MMO ProjectJoin our team! Positions still available.CONFLICT:Omega
1,845
February 11, 2004 03:18 PM
Vanquish''s post brings us full-circle, and points out that this is a hefty thread. Does somebody want to recap?
This topic is closed to new replies.
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