AP, stop posting flamebait.

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
by the way, do you really think that these non-violent philosophies breed non-violence?

No they breed bordem, and disillusions.



Go to war again, blood is freedom''s stain, But don''t you pray for my soul anymore.

Hmmm, do non-violent philosophies breed non-violence? Unfortunately for the most part, not entirely. Look at Christianity, it''s non-violent. Look at Japan in WWII, even though Shinto and Zen are non-violent.

As with most things in life, it''s up to the individual to chose what they want in life, and how they go about doing it. A great example is the asian (particularly the Japanese) concept of honor. For some, the slightest insult meant that the insult had to be cleansed with blood. However, the highest masters realized how stupid and futile that was. They proclaimed that honor was entirely self-measured....no other person could take it away from you. Just as in Christianity we are not supposed to make judgments, and yet how many people really do this?

In the game, the players may be faced with moral dilemmas but from a different way of thinking. What if you believed in saving lives, but the only way to do it was to kill another? What if your Lord mandated that all the vassals under his charge could have only one child....all others would have to undergo infanticide? What if you believe in total filal piety, and yet your father makes you do something dishonorable? Our first instinct is that we would judge such dilemmas from our own set of rules and preconceived notions. But if the game is played this way, then it will lose much of the intended flavor (and purpose) of the game.

For example, in the movie The Last Samurai , Katsumoto thought that Lieutenant Colonel Armstrong Custer was a great general because he faced such great odds, while Captain Algren thought Custer was an egotistical idiot who got his men killed. If the player doesn''t try to have a "beginner''s mind" (Shushin) then I''m not sure if my game will be of much point. Without this beginner''s mind, then it''ll be just another anime hack and slash-fest focusing on supra and supernatural powers. This is not what I want. I want the players to focus less on competition (fighting other things, gaining more money, experience, or status) and more on defeating the true enemy....themselves.

Which begs yet another question: is it possible to open someone''s mind to another perspective? This question is actually my main fear...that by trying to open people''s minds, it is like trying to dissuade people from their chosen faith. It''s almost as if open-minded = non-faithful, which to some people is akin to an attack on their beliefs.

quote: Original post by Dauntless
Which begs yet another question: is it possible to open someone''s mind to another perspective? This question is actually my main fear...that by trying to open people''s minds, it is like trying to dissuade people from their chosen faith. It''s almost as if open-minded = non-faithful, which to some people is akin to an attack on their beliefs.

eh, so some of those people who cling to their religion so hard that they can''t handle a differing view will not like your game. you should still go for it, and just not expect jack chick to buy it

..you could have a Metal Gear Solid / Deus Ex style com-link where one or two characters are available to comment on how you went / go about situations. Showing different perspectives on the matter.

You could remove experince.
Instead have the character improve.
By gaining honor, increaing their enlightment and mainting spirtual balance.

If the player acts dishonorably they will lose honor and their honor based stats will suffer they may even lose honor based abilites.

But that begs the question could you convice the player to have their character commit sempuku to preserve their families honor?

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Writer, Programer, Cook, I'm a Jack of all Trades
Current Design project
Chaos Factor Design Document



[edited by - TechnoGoth on January 21, 2004 1:13:53 PM]

quote: You could remove experince.
Instead have the character improve.
By gaining honor, increaing their enlightment and mainting spirtual balance.

If the player acts dishonorably they will lose honor and their honor based stats will suffer they may even lose honor based abilites.

This is a very intriguing idea.

quote: But that begs the question could you convice the player to have their character commit sempuku to preserve their families honor?

Suppose seppuku causes the character to possess a different member of the same family. If there is no experience, only honor, then there will be a point at which a character is so dishonorable that a mediocre fighter would be better (especially after the boost from seppuku) than one''s present character.

I prefer, though, to have honor affect the rate of increase of experience. At some point, your character becomes so dishonorable that he actually begins to lose skill. Perhaps some sort of logistic function (where honor is the carrying capacity), by which when one''s skill is much less than one''s honor, one''s skill increases very rapidly, but asymptotically approaches one''s honor level, and if one''s skill is greater than one''s honor, one loses skill until one''s skill is less than one''s honor.

Then if one''s family''s honor is greater than one''s individual honor, it would make sense to switch to another member of the family by committing seppuku (particularly if seppuku absolves your family of your dishonor and/or one''s family gets a big boost of honor from your committing seppuku).

I think this would make a great freeform RPG. Wandering around, doing good, like Quai Chang Kain. Occasionally getting training from a master, until your skill approaches your level of honor, and then doing more good.

Just a comment, I''m not disagreeing here at all - but to look at it from another perspective.

"Damn, this character suxxors! I can''t do anything with him, no on will talk with me and I''m getting p0wned! I''ll just do this seppuku thing and suicide, then start over with a roxxor new ''toon!"

It''s hard as hell to change a player''s mentality. In the above scenario, all you''ve really done is given the player an easy out to change characters. In fact, suiciding is a BETTER option for them because it starts them over with a clean slate; they don''t have to work as hard to clear their honor.

ahh, But sempuku was not so much about regaining honor as it was peserving honor. There where times when it was required such as if you failed in your duties to the Emperor. Would the player still due it? If they have powerful character who for whatever reason could could not complete a mission thier honor would demend thier death. But I think players would have a hard time with that.


Which gives me another idea honor. "Hard to gain but easy to loss." Basicly that the amount of honor you loose for doing dishonorable acts is directly related to the amount of honor you have. So the more honor you have the more you loose when doing something dishonorable. So if you had 10 honor and broke your word you might lose 1 honor. Howerever if you had 100 honor and broke your word you might lose 50 honor.

-----------------------------------------------------
Writer, Programer, Cook, I''m a Jack of all Trades
Current Design project
Chaos Factor Design Document

quote: Original post by Flarelocke
You''re being way too concerned about this. There was a console game in which you kill God, and most people merely found it fascinating.

What game are you talking about? I can''t think of a game where you killed a God that is from a widely practiced religion...just curious