A friend of mine wants to buy Light Wave second hand off e-bay. It will have the box, the manuals and the dongle. From what I understand the licence is for one user only and you cannot sell it to someone else. I''ve told him his copy won''t be legal but he doesn''t believe me. Am I right or wrong?

This is covered in NewTek's FAQ page. I have posted the relevent one here.

quote: Quote from NewTek's FAQ

Can registration be transferred?

Yes, registration of commercially-licensed NewTek products is transferrable in most situations. If you buy a previously-owned NewTek product, you should ask the seller for an invoice or a bill of sale, and for a letter of release of registration. Both of these should cite the serial number of the product. The letter should include the name, address, and phone number of the previous owner. These materials should be faxed to Customer Service, or the information can be emailed.

If you have purchased a used NewTek product, but did not receive an invoice or bill of sale, you can fax or email a statement which includes name, address, and phone number of both you and the previous owner, and the serial number of the product, along with a brief message explaining the transfer.

Educational licenses of NewTek products are not transferrable unless they are first converted to commercial licenses. Customer Services can provide information and pricing on such conversions. Lab packs, or parts of lab packs, owned by educational institutions may NOT be upgraded to a commercial license or transferred.

Note: If you sell your NewTek product, please provide the purchaser with an invoice and a letter of release, as described above.

First make it work,
then make it fast.
--Brian Kernighan

"The problems of this world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men and women who can dream of things that never were." - John Fitzgerald Kennedy(35th US President)

[edited by - CaptainJester on September 11, 2003 12:49:16 PM]

That information appears to be in violation of the First Sale Doctrine.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/109.html

"the owner of a particular copy or phonorecord lawfully made under this title, or any person authorized by such owner, is entitled, without the authority of the copyright owner, to sell or otherwise dispose of the possession of that copy or phonorecord"

Simply put, if you own a copy of a copyrighted work, you can sell that copy, no strings attached. This doesn''t mean that you can sell copies of what you own (you don''t gain the copyright), but to say that you require permission from the copyright holder to sell a copy that you lawfully own is bogus.

Of course, this only applies in the USA, and probably in Europe. If you''re outside of those jurisdictions the laws may be different.

JSwing

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
That information appears to be in violation of the First Sale Doctrine.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/109.html

"the owner of a particular copy or phonorecord lawfully made under this title, or any person authorized by such owner, is entitled, without the authority of the copyright owner, to sell or otherwise dispose of the possession of that copy or phonorecord"

Simply put, if you own a copy of a copyrighted work, you can sell that copy, no strings attached. This doesn''t mean that you can sell copies of what you own (you don''t gain the copyright), but to say that you require permission from the copyright holder to sell a copy that you lawfully own is bogus.

Of course, this only applies in the USA, and probably in Europe. If you''re outside of those jurisdictions the laws may be different.

JSwing

That would be correct it they were selling something they owned. According to NewTek and most other companies that do this kind of business, you do not own the product. You have grant of license to use the product. So technically they do not own a copyrighted work.


First make it work,
then make it fast.
--Brian Kernighan

"The problems of this world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men and women who can dream of things that never were." - John Fitzgerald Kennedy(35th US President)

quote: Original post by CaptainJester

That would be correct it they were selling something they owned. According to NewTek and most other companies that do this kind of business, you do not own the product. You have grant of license to use the product. So technically they do not own a copyrighted work.

I agree that this is what the companies claim.

And until recently the courts have agreed that merely calling it a grant of license (as opposed to a sale) is sufficient for it to be a grant of license. At least according to a variety of law sites, I don''t know of any specific cases that have upheld this.

But recently there has been at least one case, SoftMan Products v. Adobe Systems, where the transactions were ruled to be sales, and therfore fall under the first sale doctrine, despite the licensing.

Some links about the case:
An overview

Another one

This is a lower court in the US so there are sure to be other cases (and appeals ofthis case) before it gets settled. My personal opinion (not that it matters much) is that the ''grant of license'' idea fails a common sense test.

Some intersting history on the subject

So the summary would be: The courts haven''t clearly and universally resolved the issue, but there is argument against (and for) such transactions being called license agreements.

JSwing

That''s very interesting JSwing. Thanks for the insight.

I think the big item in this case is that Lightwave uses a dongle. When you have this apparatus, you never own it. It is like leasing a car. You are not allowed to transfer the lease agreement to another person without the consent of the dealership where you got the car. The same with Lightave, the dongle comes with the license agreement.

I don''t know if those cases you cited would apply to the dongle as well. I guess the only way to really know would be to talk to a lawyer. However, if you are going to spend that kind of cash, you might as well just buy the brand new product.


First make it work,
then make it fast.
--Brian Kernighan

"The problems of this world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men and women who can dream of things that never were." - John Fitzgerald Kennedy(35th US President)

I thought dongles were just a form of copy protection? I mean, the original poster indicated that the seller would provide the dongle too, so I don''t quite see how that is any different. But I''m pretty ignorant about the things.

The car lease is a good analogy. But software licenses aren''t structured like car leases. Software generally has a one-time payment rather than payment over time intervals. And the license never expires or requires renewal. So it''s not very much like a car lease.

A good counter example might be the more recent Microsoft licensing deals for businesses. The idea is that a company pays a fixed rate and Microsoft provides software, with upgrades and support, for the life of the contract. I think that qualifies as a license to use rather than purchase (not a good idea, just a good example).

quote:
I guess the only way to really know would be to talk to a lawyer. However, if you are going to spend that kind of cash, you might as well just buy the brand new product.

That''s the real truth.

What if your friend downloaded Light Wave of Kazaa instead of buying it? It is legal until you get caught right?

Edited by Moderator "digisoap": Congrats! You're on probation. Say something like this again, or reply to this probationary period in any negative way, e.g. "well how do you know if someone has pirated software blah blah," or "you're overreacting it was only a joke bitchwhinemoan," and you'll be banned.

Talk of this sort, or any type of encouraging of the pirating of ANYTHING, software included, is not welcome or allowed. In fact, you're lucky I just put you on probation, because I'm in a good mood. Normally, this would earn you an immediate ban. Keeping that in mind, be very careful how you proceed from this point on, as all of those users on probation are watched by ALL Mods in EVERY forum.

[edited by - digisoap on September 15, 2003 5:54:04 PM]

quote: Original post by sakky
What if your friend downloaded Light Wave of Kazaa instead of buying it? It is legal until you get caught right?

No.

JSwing