So who''s got opinions on puzzles? What makes one suck, what makes one awesome? Is there a finite number of kinds of puzzles? Do you like mechanical puzzles (water valves in Myst), symbolic puzzles, algorythm puzzles (towers of hanoi), code translation puzzles (number system in Riven), timing puzzles, and/or use-the-right-item puzzles? What kind of puzzles did I forget? Are there any good resources about types of puzzles? How do you make up original puzzles? Is that enough questions? Personally I don''t like use-the-right-item puzzles unless they''re way creative. Some of the ones in Lighthouse were cool, for example. I don''t like code translation puzzles because they''re either too easy or too hard. I don''t like timing puzzles because I''m bad at them. I think good graphics can make or break a puzzle. Things I think are virtues of puzzles: Puzzles’ existence and style should make sense within the plot. A puzzle walkthrough should be included with the game. Puzzles should require application of real-world principles, and deductive and inductive reasoning. It should be easy and convenient to re-attempt a puzzle. A solved puzzle should stay solved. Puzzle-necessary items should be impossible to sell or waste. A good resource for creating symbolic puzzles is _Handbook_of_Signs_and_Devices_, by Clarence P. Hornung, available from Barnes and Noble.

quote: Original post by sunandshadow

Is that enough questions?

S&S, you can never ask too many questions! =)

I''ve never been too big on games that rely entirely on puzzles, because I''m not very clever. But a good intermediate puzzle is great when it''s rationally placed in the middle of a game. I think the key is not to become dependant on them as a designer. You generally know when you''ve gone to far if the player would be asking "What the hell does this have to do with anything?!"

As far as I can see, Tomb Raider has pretty much killed the block puzzle, even for hardcore puzzlegamers. "Block Puzzle" is almost a curse word to some gamers.

Thank you S&S, for trying to start a thread that had nothing to do (directly) with the nature of RPGs, or anything to do with me... my ego needs a break every so often.

"The unexamined life is not worth living."
-Socrates

Yes, I''m getting tired of RPG threads. Oh well, they''re interesting reading.

The one thing that turns me off of some puzzles, are how long they take to solve. If I''m throwing a bunch of switches trying to get the right combination, or moving blocks, trying to find the doorway, It getts real redundent real fast and that''s boring. A puzzle shouldn''t be solved by mindless repitition.

My favorate puzzles have always been ones that use reflection of some type (mirrors, bouncing ball) or some kind of logic gates (if I put THIS here, it''ll only trigger when THIS happens)

Puzzles where you have to find a key are good for letting someone know where to go for the next step while making them go explore your world a bit.

E:cb woof!

Beware of ''dead-end'' puzzles. By this, I mean puzzles where, if you can''t solve them right now, you can''t advance. I''ve played a couple of games with this type of puzzle, and although I loved the games as a whole, sometimes the only way to solve such puzzles is to leave the game for a week or a month and come back with a fresh mind. Personally I''d prefer not to do this, as I like to be immersed in a game and able to play it every time I feel like it, not to think "oh, I''d like to play it but I have no idea how to get past that".

Apart from that, just try varying the puzzles. Keep the players on their toes by not being repetitive. And try to make them fit the game. A fantasy RP game where you have to solve the anagram or guess the next number in the sequence wouldn''t really fit so much, and would perhaps damage the atmosphere.

quote: Original post by Kylotan

Beware of ''dead-end'' puzzles. By this, I mean puzzles where, if you can''t solve them right now, you can''t advance.

I agree, although If you really wanted the puzzle to be necessary it would be ok if you included a walkthrough for the puzzle with the game, either on the cd or on paper.

My all time favorite puzzle was the "sword fighting puzzle" in Monkey Island 1 (repeated with lesser sucess in Monkey Island 3).

The reason it was so great was that it fitted so perfectly with the games atmosphere an that the solution to the puzzle was found by actually playing and exploring the game.

In order to be a pirate you had to win a sword duel against some sword master. The duel wasn''t really won with the sword but by yelling insults at the enemy (and by knowing the correct responses to the insults yelled by your enemy). So in order to "solve" the puzzle you had to go out and explore and find some pirates to train against.

Regards

nicba

I can''t remember the name, but in an RPG on the SNES there was a part you had to solve puzzles where you had to move blocks on the right stones. As a game that would be fucked up boring, but in an RPG it''s nice to have some things to distract. Let''s the player do something different for a short period, This will keep the willpower to play the game further in it.

Seriously, when I see the word "Puzzles" it makes me shudder. I know they are necessary for games, but a lot of game developers take them WAY out of hand. I remember old rpgs from SNES that would make me so mad because it would take me HOURS to work through puzzles in some castles or dungeons, some where I even got the the point that I was drawing maps by hand. Lets face it, this is okay once in a while, but when EVERY challenge in the game is just a maze with weird stuff all over the place, it can drive the player crazy. Really crazy. Lets take Zelda for the Nintendo 64. I was excited about it. I liked the old Zeldas. I got the new Zelda, and played it hard core for a while. I beat a few temples, did that whole past/present thing and got Epona, even snuck through that thieves den place and everything. But I still have temples left, and it was driving me insane. I got so pissed I stopped playing it. I suppose I''ll go back and try to beat it some time in the future, but its just not fun anymore because I''m not cought up in the game. There is such thing as move-blocks-in-maze-puzzle over kill.

Someone mentioned Monkey Island. I loved that series! The whole thing was puzzle by "right item" pretty much, but I never got bored with it back then. Puzzle by item just seems more creative, and also more in tune with the rest of the plot. Try playing Shannara by Legend Entertainment. This has excellent "right item" puzzles and still follows the plot perfectly.

People gotta remember not to make the puzzles too hard. It may seem easy when you are developing it, but thats because you developed it! When someone with no idea what you had in mind, or maybe what the whole scene looks like starts to figure it out, it can be a lot harder than the developer thought it would. No one likes being stuck in the puzzles.

Myst puzzles were cool because there was a lot of creativity behind them, seriously. And they pretty much were the plot. Solve the puzzles, try to find out whats going on, jump through the next book. If you can be as creative with puzzles as Cyan was when they made Myst, then puzzle away my friend, cause those were fun.

To make up original puzzles, I guess you have to really rely on your storyline. Pulling from the storyline and the setting that your game is in, you might think of something that hasn''t been done before.

My final tip before I go is this. Never have a puzzle that doesn''t give some immeadiate reward. Some magical item, some quest completed, some maiden saved, maybe even a pre-rendered video cinematic, but good grief, just give them something, or it will seem there were no fruits to all their hard work, and they won''t be motivated to complete the next puzzle when it comes along.


And yeah...thats about it.


"Imagination is the key to Creation"

The RPG on the SNES you are thinking of is probably either Lufia and the Fortress of Doom or Lufia: Rise of the Sinistrals. Both games had lots of original puzzles. Some where quite simple, where others where VERY hard. Most of the very difficult ones were optional, to get cool weapons and stuff.