Obscure: Ah, ok, we''re on the same wavelength now.

When I said that ''the publisher involves themselves in all aspects of the project'' I meant moreso than the ''developer-driven'' ones - that is, they''ll often have initial ideas about the game they want you to develop before they even sign you up. If those initial requirements are flawed (particularly in terms of the game design) then it''s much harder to persuade the publisher to drop them, than it is if you provided the initial concept.

And as far as fan fiction projects go - surely, if it were good, they''d want a hand in it? It would be a way of renewing interest in the franchise (because it''s pretty much underground these days), and if so, they''d want to push it pretty hard. If it were bad, it''d be one student making something which he''d then release as freeware in that vast abyss which is the internet - 2000 people at most would see it. I just can''t see how they''d lose out, and if they can''t lose out, they''d want to take it.

S1CA: whoa, a lot of information in easy-to-digest nuggets

First off, I know the situation for small studios in the UK isn''t brilliant right now. I have been reading MCV; I have noted that pretty much every issue, there''s another studio either closing down or at least making massive reductions in headcount.

I have no intention of jumping straight into a game company ''because it would be cool.'' I''m going to develop a business plan, get some designs (possibly with prototypes) down properly, obtain funding (a bank loan, my own pocket, and most probably the non-game ''steady stream of revenue'' products). I think it''s best to try and sign a publisher at the beginning of development, because of course you don''t want to have developed something which nobody wants to sell.

I''m going about it slowly. I''m still in school, for bob''s sake... I''ve bought some IP (''The Binary Refinery'' and accompanying logo are fully registered trademarks) because (a) I want it before someone else nabs it and (b) it doesn''t expire unless I stop using it for a period of time. So while it''s up on my website, I own it.

Does an internship count for much? My current internship (a.k.a. ''summer job'') ends in a week, but while I''ve been there I will have attributed my name to two projects (assuming, touch-wood, that neither of them get canned ).

Concerning two directors, you mean a CTO and a CEO? I''m going to be leaving secondary school with an A-level in Economics (and I just got an A in my AS for it), but I can see that if many places employ two people to do it, it must be because the jobs require two people.



Superpig
- saving pigs from untimely fates, and when he''s not doing that, runs The Binary Refinery.
Enginuity1 | Enginuity2 | Enginuity3 | Enginuity4

quote:

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Original post by superpig
And as far as fan fiction projects go - surely, if it were good, they'd want a hand in it? It would be a way of renewing interest in the franchise (because it's pretty much underground these days), and if so, they'd want to push it pretty hard. If it were bad, it'd be one student making something which he'd then release as freeware in that vast abyss which is the internet - 2000 people at most would see it. I just can't see how they'd lose out, and if they can't lose out, they'd want to take it.

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1. "Having a hand in it" requires allocating resources that could be far better used making programs or in profit making ventures. If they aprove the use of their IP they have to monitor and approve the project. It doesn't matter how much or little the resources they could be better spent elsewhere.
2. A little freeware game isn't going to refresh their brand, in fact they are far more likely to see it as devalueing their IP. If Dr Who games are given away free then why would people buy them in the future?
3. If it was bad you certainly wouldn't be releasing it for 200 people to see. IP owners maintain very strict control over the quality of product based on their IP and they certainly wont allow you to release something they don't approve.

quote:

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I have no intention of jumping straight into a game company 'because it would be cool.' I'm going to develop a business plan, get some designs (possibly with prototypes) down properly, obtain funding (a bank loan, my own pocket, and most probably the non-game 'steady stream of revenue' products). I think it's best to try and sign a publisher at the beginning of development, because of course you don't want to have developed something which nobody wants to sell.

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You wont get publisher funding.
That in essence is what Simon and I have been telling you. Re-read my post about start-ups and upstarts. Publishers ONLY fund companies made up of individuals with YEARS of industry experience (and no being an intern doesn't count).

To get experience you need to go and work for a developer (as Simon suggested). The only other alternative is "upstart". You fund the whole project yourself.

quote:

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Concerning two directors, you mean a CTO and a CEO? I'm going to be leaving secondary school with an A-level in Economics (and I just got an A in my AS for it), but I can see that if many places employ two people to do it, it must be because the jobs require two people.

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He is talking about one person to focus on the development and one to focus on running the company. The big mistake many developer start-ups make is that they assume that because they can programme/do art/make a game that they will be a success. Then they make a dumb business mistake and the company is screwed or, far more often the publishers look at the game, like it, look at the (total lack of) management structure, business experience, understanding of industry issues (such as IP) and just walk away.

Dan Marchant
Obscure Productions
Game Development & Design consultant

[edited by - obscure on August 23, 2003 8:12:54 PM]

quote:

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Original post by Obscure

quote:

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I have no intention of jumping straight into a game company ''because it would be cool.'' I''m going to develop a business plan, get some designs (possibly with prototypes) down properly, obtain funding (a bank loan, my own pocket, and most probably the non-game ''steady stream of revenue'' products). I think it''s best to try and sign a publisher at the beginning of development, because of course you don''t want to have developed something which nobody wants to sell.

---

You wont get publisher funding.
That in essence is what Simon and I have been telling you. Re-read my post about start-ups and upstarts. Publishers ONLY fund companies made up of individuals with YEARS of industry experience (and no being an intern doesn''t count).

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But wait, what? Don''t you get advances on milestones and the like?

Perhaps I''m labouring under the assumption that ''getting a publisher'' means money *before* publishing, as well as *after* it (royalties). I thought that was what usually happened, though? If not then I can see what you mean.



Superpig
- saving pigs from untimely fates, and when he''s not doing that, runs The Binary Refinery.
Enginuity1 | Enginuity2 | Enginuity3 | Enginuity4

> Don''t you get advances on milestones and the like?

I suggest you read IGDA''s game submission guide (+free+): http://www.igda.org/biz/submission_guide.php. A very good read about how to aproach a publisher. The book "Secrets of the Game Business" (Charles River Media Pub., F-D Laramee ed.) is also a good buy if you can afford it.

-cb

quote:

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Original post by superpig
But wait, what? Don''t you get advances on milestones and the like?

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Do you have years of industry experience (minimum two products published, with you working full time on both in a lead capacity on at least one of them)?

Dan Marchant
Obscure Productions
Game Development & Design consultant

It''s always funny to see people discussing ''getting funding, etc.'' without talking about the actual game product. This is the games business - if you''re a startup, the only way to do it is if you have a killer game demo, or even better a near complete game. And I am talking about what the ''general gaming public'' would consider a killer game, not what you or your family thinks is.

It really needs to meet or exceed the quality of what the big publishers are selling now and in the next year or so, otherwise they won''t be interested.

Obscure is right, you may not like it, but that''s the way it works.

If you don''t have an experienced team, the only way is a kick-ass, commercial A-grade quality game/demo. The problem is you''ll still need the studio for when the publisher visits you (that''s rent at 1000s of dollars per month for xx months or longer), you''ll still need commercial quality artwork, concept art, 3D models, music, soundfx, voice acting, etc, not only for the game, but for advertising, etc. since the publisher will want this from you as well.

Plus if it''s only a demo you have (not near complete), they''ll want to visit you, check out your team and your studio, get down to deciding a milestone agreement, etc. Your bedroom, aunt''s house, garage, etc. will not work to get you a deal.

In the end, your primary concern should never be ''how can I get funding'' because you won''t.

Your concern should be to get experience in making commercial grade games, because in the end that''s the only thing publishers want and will pay for. Two ways to do it: by joining an established game developer, or do it yourself (but you''ll need to have the cash to survive, buy equipment and people you need to complete the project).

The reason it isn''t easy is because a game title nowadays involves millions of dollars and nobody is going to allocate that kind of money to unproven people.


Take care,

Mark

OK, I get the message. I''ll fall in line and go work for the superdevelopers like a good peon.

Superpig
- saving pigs from untimely fates, and when he''s not doing that, runs The Binary Refinery.
Enginuity1 | Enginuity2 | Enginuity3 | Enginuity4

quote:

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Original post by superpig
OK, I get the message. I''ll fall in line and go work for the superdevelopers like a good peon.

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No, you don''t HAVE to do that. As I said there are two ways. One is start-up (experience/team/demo/docs required) and the other is upstart (what you refered to as "indie to pro").

You only have to do what your told if you go the start-up route. Choose the upstart route and you can do what you want..... just don''t expect some publisher to fund you while you do it.

Dan Marchant
Obscure Productions
Game Development & Design consultant

quote:

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Original post by Obscure
Choose the upstart route and you can do what you want..... just don''t expect some publisher to fund you while you do it.

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Except that the upstart route requires pretty large amounts of cash and confidence... neither of which I have.

I guess there''s still the ''release business apps for a bit, then make games'' approach. Perhaps my experience with JSP and XML would be a good place to start for web services apps...

Superpig
- saving pigs from untimely fates, and when he''s not doing that, runs The Binary Refinery.
Enginuity1 | Enginuity2 | Enginuity3 | Enginuity4

quote:

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Original post by superpig
OK, I get the message. I''ll fall in line and go work for the superdevelopers like a good peon.

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Perhaps a better way of thinking about it is you get that experience of development, experience of the industry, credit on published titles (that a publisher would *require* of anyone pitching to them - unless what was being pitched was exceptionally amazing) without any personal risk or cost to you.

i.e. you let the company you work for take all that risk while you learn, THEN you break away and do your own thing if you feel it''s the right thing to do.

That''s also a way to get the industry contacts you''ll need (realistically - you could do it without the contacts but it''ll be 100x tougher). Those dinners when the publisher visits, the technical conferences the employer pays for etc - all great ways to make some very handy contacts.


In your favour, you''re young (still in school!) and already have an industry internship under your belt (that isn''t the same as a full credit on a game you''ve seen through from design to release though) and a reasonable idea of how the industry works. You should do well - one day. But the standard wise quotes are very relevent here: "Don''t try to run before you can walk" and "Rome wasn''t built in a day" etc.

If confidence in business meetings etc is an issue, you''d definately need to partner up with someone who has the "gift of the gab" and was comfortable with business stuff - publishers will try and pick as many holes in your company as they can (they want to be sure you''re the right guys for the job).
A developer really needs to "sell" themselves and any project to the people at the publisher who like games (external producers etc) and those who couldn''t care less about games and want to talk finances, management practices and company stability (accountants, lawyers, marketing etc).

Latest advice/suggested plan:
- keep watching the industry, join IGDA, visit IGDA chapter meetings to get to meet others etc. Learn as much as you can about how it all works (development, publishing, retail).

- go to university, maybe not a games specific course (so you have something to fall back on). If programming is your desired area, do something with lots of maths content. Enjoy yourself there. It might be prudent to make friends with people on the business studies degrees at the same university (thinking ahead - see my note in the above post about the ideal company being directed by a combination of business/sales/PR and development people - I''ve worked at companies that had management who were all business types and others where management were all development types - trust me you NEED both, and you need balance).

- develop games in your spare time, keep up to date with gaming technology etc. Maybe release a few shareware products, maybe a few internet distribution things. They''ll be good for your CV, good for interview demos, will teach you about what customers want, will let you try out the more wacky ideas and get feedback without any risk. It''s rare you''ll get the chance when you''re in the industry full time.

- do as much non geek/games stuff as possible. Balance is a good thing - as is understanding how non-geeks think [the majority of the games buying public are the "casual gamers", normal people - don''t make the games you want to play, make the games they want to play]

- work at a few games companies. Get those published titles under your belt. If you''re going to be part of the "key staff" at a new developer you NEED those credits. Preferably work at different types of companies related to the industry [contact building, experience of how that part of the industry works etc]. Maybe you could work at a retailer part time during university, work at a small (former startup) independent developer, work at a large independent developer, work at a publisher owned developer, work at a publisher.

- Once you REALLY know how the WHOLE industry works (from experience not just reading & rumour) and have the contacts & experience, if you feel the time is right (with the benefit of experience on your side), break away from the company you''re at. Probably doing it with some of the contacts you''ve built up along the way. Realistically this would be after 5+ years working at other peoples companies.