hey, i know where landfish lives.. Almost went to see him once.. hehe so if you need to know..

As far as things go, I think classifications are good. I mean, it lets the consumers know what general qualifications this game or whatever has. It''s important to remember the consumer in this. You''ve got to make sure they have a slight understanding of what you''re trying to do with this game. Argue as you like, but they will still need to classify your game in order to allow people interested to know what it''s about. If you constantly tell them "don''t classify me" people will discredit you as some extremist who has no concern for the greater public. Like the flames Landfish has recieved because of his "no RPG" posting. he didn''t mean literally No RPG games, he meant no more using the title RPG and the things we associate with that type of game. Basically, make your own game.. include your own ideas, don''t hold true to the "stat" and "skill" things we associate with RPG games. Go off and make it what you wish, and let people call it what they will Heck, maybe even you can change what people see as an RPG

J

This is true; people need a way to classify things, they have to know what they are at when they buy a game. But I don''t think that it''s necessary to write "RPG" on the cover in big letters, because, as I already said, an RPG can mean so many things (the diversion is bigger than in any other "genre", I am quite sure); someone who likes Might & Magic 7 might not like Fallout, so what does it help him when both games are being described as an "RPG"? I mean, someone who wants to purchase a game will (or should) inform himself about the game anyway before he buys it; if he does not, he is likely to get a game he doesn''t like, wether it says "RPG" on the box or not. I mean, if you put something like "an interactive story about this and that..." on the top of the box (or some other eyecatching phrase) and have a cool picture on it, even people who aren''t informed about the game will at least look at it; they will read the description at the back of the box, and there is a brief description of the game so everybody knows what it''s all about (that''s for the spontaneous buyers); those who inform themselves (i.e. read magazines) will know about the game anyway; and stupid 13-year olds who like Tomb Raider because they can masturbate in front of the computer with it aren''t gonna buy the game no matter what (maybe if you put a half-naked woman who shoots at aliens with a really big gun, making the alien''s brains and bowels spurt around, they will). And if you absolutely must in order to get more customers, put "RPG" on the box, what the hell, as long as the developers of the game don''t stick to certain "RPG"-Elements dogmatically (?) because they want to make a classical RPG!

BTW, I really love the "traditional RPGs", I could play the old Ultimas all the day, and I hope there will be more of those games in the future; but we just need something really new from time to time, and maybe these games could be even better when the developers stop sticking to RPG-Dogmas and get a bit more open-minded (but beware of dumbing-down a game, as happened with Ultima : Ascension, because you want to bring f.i. Action-Adventure Elements into the classical RPGs!)

I agree with that totally I mean, you can put something like "in the RPG tradition" if you''re going for something classical RPG but a bit off or something else.. but don''t say "the RPG of all RPG''s" lol! marketing.. ugh.

J

Niphty and Naz have been arguing my case pretty well, but missing one crucial aspect. If you do as I asked, and completely consider how every aspect of your game relates to what you wanted to amek to begin with, and it''s still a picture perfect cliche, THAT''S PERFECTLY OK!

In retrospect a much better title for this thread would have been: "Stop blindly using old ideas, unless you need them!"

I am giving up on this post, and starting a new one without all the ignorance. Anyone who wants to be reasonable and actually address the topic, go there. As for the people who will inevitably continue misinterpretting this post in my absence:

I THINK WE SHOULD ALL STOP MAKING RPGs BECAUSE THEY SUCK, AND ONLY NERDS PLAY THEM. FIRST PERSON SHOOTERS ARE THE ONLY COOL GAMES< AND I WILL REFUSE TO LISTEN TO ANYONE WHO SAYS OTHERWISE!

so there.

Oh yeah, this is kind of lovely...


But honestly, Landfish, shouldn´t you be playing your games elsewhere?

For all others, just take it literally ROLE PLAYING GAME. The numbers are to help you visualize your character. Take that away and you´ve got an adventure game. Take the plot away and you´ve got an action game.


And i think

WE SHOULD NOT DO GAMES ANYMORE AT ALL BECAUSE THEY ALL SUCK ANYWAYS. ALL THOSE WHO WILL FOLLOW ME SHOULD GNAW OFF THEIR TEN FINGERS SO THAT THEY SHALL NEVER CODE AGAIN.
YOU WILL SEE THAT IT´S FOR THE BEST MY CHILDREN

I know you''ve already posted another message, but I''d still like to pick up on this:

quote: Original post by Roderik
Throw away all the categorys like RPG, FPS, RTS, whatever, forget them! I hate categorization into genres, I hate it in films, and I hate it in music.

Then why did SO many people reply angrily ( and without properly reading ) to this thread? Obviously, the innocuous three letters RPG ( oh yes, a category ) provoke a very strong emotional response in a lot of people.

Just to back up the fact of how much that we REALLY think in categories.
Abstraction/Generalisation is one of the strengths, and weaknesses, of the human mind.


Give me one more medicated peaceful moment..
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~

I didn't sift through all the 3 pages of this, so I'm sorry if somebody already posted this, but I think it went largely unnoticed. I'm still recovering from laughing though, but here it is from the second (and anonymous) post in this thread:

quote:
RPG's are stories told by someone where the reader gets to perform actions that help determine the inevitable outcome.

Too true, too true...

while( strcmp(reply,flame) )    followThread();  

random-nomad

Edited by - random-nomad on June 23, 2000 12:16:39 AM

Landfish, I agree with you in part. RPG''s used be GREAT now their just sad. Checking out the shelves at the stores the other day 90% fell into the first person shooter or C&C strategy type genres.
The heart and soul of RPGs disappeared with the emergence greedy publisher who care more about how much dosh they make rather than if a game is fun. They just use stale ideas over and over and over, no one is ever creative anymore. The whole games industry needs a massive wake up call, yes 3D first person shoot em ups and C&C style games make money but quite frankly I''m sick of them. Their just the same just the exact same game, perhaps with fancier graphics and a different environment. RPG HAH! what RPG? I wouldn''t call any game on the market right now a REAL rpg, perhaps tactical, action ( which diablo 2 should have been called ) but not an rpg. I dunno why games are labelled RPG, when their not, sure you get to play character X but your led along a linear story line, finishing one goal after the other. I don''t call that role playing I would classify that as adventure.

The only game i would call an RPG would be ultima 7, now that was an RPG, if I wanted to kill the banker I could! If I wanted to bake break yeah I could do that too.
People wonder why 3D FPS and strategy games make so much money. Gosh now let me see.... ugghhh maybe it''s because their the only darn genres out there. I don''t know what can be done, perhaps if a REAL rpg had the same success as Doom did publishers, developers and game players alike would have a completely different outlook on RPGs.

On the bright side, you can count on market dynamics to eventually bring people around to the opinion that you have just expressed, and there will once again be a flood of RPGs of some form. Nature abhors a vacuum, and humankind ain''t that happy with it neither

mikey

So much to read...so little time

Sorry to skip so many posts but just wanted to comment on rpg as a genre.

To me...I think rpg is more a genre of people than a genre of games. I can see a rpg in any game. I can play Doom and give myself certain traits that I myself don''t possess. I can play a nasty backstabber, I can play a coward (ok, that''s a LITTLE bit like myself), I can play a fool, I can...I can.

I can roleplay in RTS as well. But maybe I do that because I''m so bad at those games

I can even roleplay in life.

Computer rpgs are usually nothing more than a large collection of hack''n''slash moments, mixed with the item-gathering that still reminds me of Mario Brothers (if you see magical weapons as power-ups...).

Sure, ''rpgs'' have spells (just a different type of power-up) and you can choose where you go...but I still can''t cut down trees, I can''t cut into rock, I can''t talk to NPC''s and have a lasting relationship with them.

And sure, I can TRY to roleplay, but in the end roleplaying in a rpg game usually makes you into a very lonely player as all your friends keep outdistancing you (the hunt for power is fast and furious).

Maybe technology is just not up to par yet to create a well-made ''rpg'' that allows for a lot of roleplaying. Maybe soon...maybe never. Maybe someone is already designing it (let me know, I want to test it ).

If we just stop seeing rpg as ''roleplaying game'' but instead as ''a game where it''s a little easier to roleplay than in other games'', we''ll finally stop getting annoyed at not finding satisfaction in our computer games.

The day that I can finally play my Ventriloquist/Illusionist WITH my schizo puppet...I hope I''ll be strong and resist the urge to plug the computer straight into my brain.

Silvermyst