I''m sorry to cross-post but I didn''t get any decent response in the lounge (in hindsight, not very surprising). I am nearing the end of my education. Just another 2 months or so and I will (hopefully) have my bachelor degree in business engineering and management. I''ve been programming games since I know what a keyboard is (about 14 years now, of which 3 years in c++/OpenGL). I really want to get into the games industry but to be honest, I don''t think I have what it takes to get in as a programmer. I want to get in as a manager of some sort, like a project manager, although that may be a bit too high for a start. So my question is: How do I improve my chance of getting a job if I apply? I don''t think that my bachelor''s degree alone will get me where I want to be. I don''t have the funds for another 4 year full time study. I live in The Netherlands and there are no part-time games related courses. I''m trying to build a name for myself by creating games to increase my chances of getting accepted if I apply somewhere but what else can I do? What part-time or online courses to take? Do I need a CS degree of some sort or should I focus more on my games-portfolio? What can I do to increase my chances of getting in from a management perspective? Thanks a lot in advance. Sander Maréchal [Lone Wolves Game Development][RoboBlast][Articles][GD Emporium][Webdesign][E-mail]

GSACP: GameDev Society Against Crap Posting
To join: Put these lines in your signature and don''t post crap!

I''m in the USA, so my views may not be valid outside of my region....but what the heck!

As has been pointed out on the web before, having the 4 year degree itself (regardless of the major) does carry some weight. It shows that you can finish something and stick it out - very useful for multiple year projects. You''re probably right that a Business Engineering job is a hard sell for game programmer, but might not be impossible. Most folks think "graphics" when talking about game programming (and some makes games that way), but there are other types. However, you''ll be competing against all the other CS majors. But if you''ve been trying to bang away at making your own small games, that''s another plus (many CS folks applying in this industry think uni work is enough).


As for jumping into the project management position - it''s as possible as any other position. US game companies usually (not always) grow their PM/producers from within. Some companies require strong knowledge of how the industry works, some don''t. In the true "management" sense, if you have _experience_ managing people in high-stress situations (instead of just taking classes about how to do it), then that''s a big plus. Even the right personality helps.

So, how do you get yourself noticed, if you''re not already in a company? There''s no set way. The only advice I can give is to get your name out in front of folks. With the easy-access of the internet, one of the easiest way is to write reviews for web sites or do a lot of _intelligent_ postings on forums (as you''ve done here). Learn what you can about the _industry_ - there''s a lot of folks in the industry now who have no idea about the business side of things. Maybe get that normal job (to get experience) and work with a game mod group to get some game experience. Here, it seems like a significant number of people get jobs via word-of-mouth (know someone who got a job OR created something like a mod that people liked). I''ve usually hired relative newbies, and the ones hired usually had demonstrated a real desire to work in gaming.

Good luck

DT
programmer
producer

Thanks a lot

I have been offered a job at a local logistics company dedicated to the Heineken brewery. My plan was to take this job after graduating and using my spare time to get into the games industry. That should give me some experience in managing people.

I am trying to get my name out. I post a lot in this forum. I''ve made a little over 600 posts with only one intentional crap-post in the lounge. I have also started a company in the Netherlands, a real registered one, not just some programming team. At the moment we earn some cash by developing business oriented websites and we use the money to create games. My first one, a robotron clone, should be done pretty soon. After that I am probabely going to write an article about Inverse Kinematics or a Postmortem of RoboBlast (I''ve already written an article about Brute Force v.s. ROAM terrain rendering). After that, i''m thinking about writing and publishing a Gauntlet-like arcade game.

Writing reviews sounds like a good idea. I haven''t thought of that before. I''ve also been thinking about getting more expercience as a ''stress'' manager. There''s a (non-paid) position up at the local theatre to help out managing a new opera play.

Thanks again for giving me a few pointers

Sander Maréchal
[Lone Wolves Game Development][RoboBlast][Articles][GD Emporium][Webdesign][E-mail]

GSACP: GameDev Society Against Crap Posting
To join: Put these lines in your signature and don''t post crap!

Sander

I''d say you''re doing everything right.
One final note: don''t push it, but always somehow work in that your job is related to Heineken and the generation of alcohol. At least here in the USA, that kind of relationship - no matter how tenuous - gives you some status. Plus I''m surprised how many folks (at least in Seattle) have dabbled in micro-breweries.

It''s those kind of silly links that can get folks to remember you or talk to you. It works on the best of us


Dave

Hehe thanks, i''ll remember that
The company works for the Heineken brewery that does all the export beer. If you take a look at your Heineken bottle it most likely says: "Brewed is ''s-Hertogenbosch, the Netherlands".

Sander Maréchal
[Lone Wolves Game Development][RoboBlast][Articles][GD Emporium][Webdesign][E-mail]

GSACP: GameDev Society Against Crap Posting
To join: Put these lines in your signature and don''t post crap!

If you say youv''e been programming for 13 years you should be qualified enough (at least for a junior position in programming even if you dont have direct games experiance). A lot of the big companies these days do have training positions for candidates that seem capable of learning.

It sounded like you didn''t want the progamming position because you thought you wern''t good enough rather then you prefer management.

All that you would need to prove yourself would be a really good demo, demos tend to impress a lot. And its not necessary to have a CS degree and its not that much of an advantage if you can demonstrate your programing skills.

As for management, were I work its unheared of for a graduate to go into a management position, its not that easy as people think and is a high pressure job which requires specific skills. Only people who have been in the industry for a while are trusted in these positions.