Disclaimer: I don''t make games, I just have lots of funky ideas. (But at least I can spell. ) So here''s my idea of the day: What about a magic system where different spells cost different amounts of MP (or whatever system you use) for different casters? For instance you have Lydian, who''s good at fire spells but sucks at ice spells, and Yarsan, who''s good at healing spells but sucks at fire spells. (This is totally disregarding the amount of health that one person''s spells would affect vs. another, at least for the time being.) So anyway, Lydian''s lowest level fire spell would cost say 3MP, whereas Yarsan''s would cost 8MP. Conversely, Lydian''s ice spell might cost 5MP (depending on exactly HOW unsuited he is for that type of spell), and Yarsan''s healing spell might only cost 2MP. (Of course if this idea was actually used, sooner or later someone would create a permutation whereby you could get better at each spell category and end up with every spell in the game only costing 1MP, but that''s beside the point. ) Get enough variety of chars going, and you could run the whole gamut of combinations. And if you ended up stuck in a situation where the only guy you had who could heal took 10MP to cast each healing spell and he only had 30MP...well that''d raise the "oh shit" factor through the roof right there. Perhaps this would work best in a game where you buy your spells rather than learning them automatically when you level up. Or else it''d hafta be made so that each person''s harder to use spells came later in the level system, and then you''d be going "Well Vayna hasn''t learned Quake yet, she must REALLY suck at it." (As opposed to buying Paralysis Cure for 2000GP and THEN discovering that your badass mage can''t use it worth a damn. *cackles evilly*) So anyway, anyone know of any games that do this? Is it a neat idea? Or am I just totally out of my mind? *cackle* If a squirrel is chasing you, drop your nuts and run.

I can see where player customization would allow one player to be better at one area than another. Being better at a certain spell discipline basically allows a caster to reduce the cost of a spell in that discipline.

It could also increase the spell''s effectiveness (against resistance, damage/healing/duration, and area of effect).

I wouldn''t be surprised if something like this has been implemented already, but I haven''t personally seen it.

morrowind does it quite similar
your skill in the particular school of magic doesn''t affect the casting cost, but it very much influences the chance of success.
IMO it works really well, especially in combination with the rather open spell-system (design your own spells from known effects, vary damage, duration etc).
so to cast a complex spell you only need enough mana
but without a good skill in that school, it will most likely fail and do nothing

Well, not to be annoying or anything, but this isn''t a new idea (at least in pen&paper RPG)
One of the classic solutions for the problem of people who would "specialise in everything" would be to simply have incompatible specialties (classic example : I specialise in Fire, so my progress at Water spells is hindered).

The trick is how you design the various "elements" of specialty you can have. Most games go for an elemental system, using the great classics (Air, Water, Fire, Earth) and possibly other more specialised, or intermediary elements (Life, Death, Ice, Poison, Electricity, etc).
My personal favourite, though (although I doubt it could be made into a cRPG magic system) is the system used in Mage : the Ascension. Magic goes through a cycle (similar in spirit to the 5 elements cycle in Chinese culture) that starts from Prime, the pure unadulterated magic force in the Universe, then goes through several stages (IIRC), Mind, Spirit, Life, Matter, Forces, then Time and Correspondence (the nature of space), and finally Entropy which terminates the cycle.
Each sphere can be learned separately, and each sphere allows a mage to influence specific aspects of reality. As your skill increase in a given sphere, the nature and magnitude of your control on this sphere becomes greater and greater, allowing for spells of biblical proportions.
Sadly, this sort of "freeform" system works really well in a roleplaying game, with a storyteller and players, but would be desperately hard to implement in a computer game.
Maybe with some sort of scripting language, but even then...
(a more detailed explanation, you should give it a read if you want to see a *really* unique magick system)


Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !

A good idea for ya''ll to ponder...

A fighter can go on fighting, swing his sword around as much as he wants, so why can''t a mage? If magic was semi-realistic, would you expect your mage friend who you were expecting to hurl out a ball of fire at your enemies, to turn to you and say, "Oops! I ran out of my magic! We''re done for!", or to atleast be able to still put up some kind of offense?

Why not get rid of MP?

I already have a few good ideas on it, just thought I''d toss it out for you to think about

- Christopher Dapo ~ Ronixus

Waverider: I didn''t bother with the effectiveness issue, as seen below. The way I figure, even if Joe''s fire spell does as much damage as Fred''s fire spell, Joe won''t be able to cast it as often as Fred, which still limits Joe''s overall effectiveness.

nev: I know there''s plenty of systems around where you can have different skills in various "schools" of magic (whether it be the earth/fire/water/air type or the conjuration/evocation type), but these focus mainly on the effectiveness of the spells of those types, not with how much energy they take out of you. Which is why I came up with my idea. I don''t claim it''s good, I just wanted to be different.

ahw: I used to own the Mage rulebook and I thought it was a really neat system (even though I only got a chance to run one game with one player...damn midwest anti-RP''ers *grrr*). But yeah it''d be damn near impossible to implement in a computer or console RPG. Sure you could create a list of spells and which sphere(s) they were associated with, but the players themselves couldn''t create all kinds of nifty ideas. (Morrowind''s system sounds similar, however we don''t have enough RAM to bother getting it.)

Ronixus: There''s a lot of games that don''t use MP, I just used it as an example since it was the easiest way to explain my idea. In Wizardry 5 (SNES) for instance, you have a set number of spells from each level that you can cast. In some games (Secret of Evermore and one of those old Ultima NES games for instance), regardless of your MP you still need spell reagents or components. And of course in D&D based games, you have to memorize spells in order to be able to use them. The thing is, WHY should a fighter be able to swing his sword endlessly either? You could just eliminate the whole MP debate by introducing fatigue, in which a fighter would get tired from swinging his sword (and lifting all that heavy armor) just as easily as a mage would get tired from casting spells. But that''s another topic entirely.

Ronixus -

The reason spellslingers have limited ability to cast spells is basically due to the Pavlovian response when you ask people about magic. Magic has to be powerful. So to balance with the swordswinger, it has to be limited in some way.

So, for example, if a spellslinger could cast fireball over and over with no limitations it would have to be weakened to remain in balance with the swordswinger.

If the swordswinger is doing 5 points of damage a swing and a wizard was throwing fireballs that did 50 , why would anyone swing a sword? ( This is above and beyond the utility of magic and its ability to fire at a "range" compared to the toe-to-toe nature of sword combat )

And if the wizards fireballs only did 5 to match the swordswinger, then people will go "Hmm... magic should be powerful"

If you want a system where they are equal, you get a game like Gauntlet.

SirReal

hey, Gauntlet is and will always be A GREAT game!

SirReal the answer to what you are saying was already posted: if we use fatigue we get rid of MP, and introduce a concept on the fighter about it ...

now, you can still have your mage do 50 damage, but, first he cast that a lot of slower than a fighter swinging his weapon, and second using that spell will increase A LOT the fatigue of your wizard, to the point he: wont be able to cast another spell, or even worst wont be able to run fast enough


now, if we keep the MP, and use the ideas on the first post, I would say yes, but add things that needs you to use those other spells (otherwise people would only use the ones they are specialized in). If you make it unpredictable it can be too ugly ... (thinking on the example someone said about buying a spell and then realizing you are really bad on it, is another risk factor, and I like risk factors ). About the things to add to make them use spells, that goes to both combat and non combat, in combat: resistances, inmunities, or in some cases weakness (well, you can put all that in only one thing called resitance ), and out of combat: quests you need to use certain type of magic, magical doors/chests, whatever else ...

quote: Original post by Ronixus
A fighter can go on fighting, swing his sword around as much as he wants, so why can''t a mage? If magic was semi-realistic, would you expect your mage friend who you were expecting to hurl out a ball of fire at your enemies, to turn to you and say, "Oops! I ran out of my magic! We''re done for!", or to atleast be able to still put up some kind of offense?

Why not get rid of MP?

How about this: Every spell deducts 1 MP, but spells take a certain level of MP. Ex: A fireball takes 3 MP. A summon fire elemental spell takes 50 MP. If a player has 51 MP, he can cast two fireelementals before his MP falls below the required level. But then he can still cast fireball.

This would allow for gradual "fatiguing", where more powerful spells are too difficult to cast for your level of fatigue.

I think this is probably why some games decided to use reagents, although I''m not sure if I''ve yet seen a game that worked ENTIRELY on reagents. (Can''t remember that far back hehe.) At least running out of reagents/components is more realistic, and some of them are harder to find, thus making some spells worth a lot more than others.

Actually for the fatigue idea, a spell wouldn''t take THAT much out of a mage unless it was a pretty powerful one. So there again, you get the same effects as having MP, except now your criterion works for fighters as well.

Problem is, if fatigue exists, logically someone''s gonna invent a spell to reduce fatigue. Other problem is, said spell would remove anything remotely resembling game balance, unless it was about as effective as closing your eyes for 2 seconds. So are we back at square one again, or what?