I''ve been toying around with a number system lately and a few things are troubling me. I never really liked games where what class you can play is limited by race. From an Everquest standpoint I figure that a gnome could make just as good a monk as a human or an Iksar. And why can''t ogres be magicians? Sure they are stupid but still... So anyway, I set out on my quest to design a new system where all races could partake in any class skill. Sure, some classes benefit more than others if they are "suited" to that class but it is possible to make a stupid ogre magician if you so choose. I am having trouble deciding how to balance things like hitpoints. Right now I am working with a system that uses a characters base stats as his founding points. The system allows players to increase their stats as time progresses through various means but the stats you start with are the most key. So say a character starts with 100 stamina and I use an equation of hitpoints gained each level is equal to 1/5 * baseStamina. This would give 20 hitpoints at level 1 and 40 at level 2. Then any other stamina increases that occurr would factor in separately. So at level 3 if a player''s stamina is 110 but he started at 100 then the extra 10 stamina points would be factored in differently like maybe a one-to-one bases (different basis per class). My goal is to make it so that increasing one''s stamina is certainly a noticible payoff but at the same time not allowing for things like ogre magicians with 10000 more hitpoints that a warrior all because he focused on building his stamina instead of his casting prowess. Then it occurred to me that probably one of the main reasons present games limit classes to certain races is because otherwise the system would be immensely hard to balance because people would inevitably find a way to make a stupid ogre into the world''s most powerful magician because even though he can only cast one spell a day he can take an endless beating because of his high hitpoints. So I am wondering if it wouldn''t be best to simply adopt the already tried and tested d20 rules (altered to suit game context of course) as opposed to trying to come up with something from scratch. I''ve tried a few different approaches and I keep coming up with the same problems. Either the system allows for things like mages with tons of hitpoints, or the system allows for things like a weak elf warrior having just as many hitpoints as an ogre warrior because as levels get higher the subtle difference of 30 stamina at level 1 doesn''t mean much at all when at level 100 the ogre has 300 stamina and the elf has 270. Seems like this may be the reason games like EQ and DAOC and others use a system already based on existing rules. Then again, maybe I''m just not seeing the bigger picture here. So the question, go with an already tested d20 typish system, or trudge on and generate something a little different that allows people to play whatver class race combo they choose and simply be reduced to having to generate unique hitpoint, mana, damage, dodge equations for every possible class/race combination in order to help guarantee that any given combination isn''t too weak or too powerful.... Thoughts? Webby

We''ve played the d20 system time and time again and the only reason the d20 systems were created is because it''s effective when just have dice to do the randomization. The computer can do this all for you.

Think about what part you think most important that you want in your system and design the system around it. We might see something interesting again for a change.

Well, the main focus that I would like to achieve is the feeling that a character is actually getting stronger in one way or another. That''s one thing I didn''t get from EQ or DAOC, each time you gain a level you get a little more hitpoints and a little more mana but your main stats never increase except through armor. This was especially bad in EQ because if you die then you are without armor and pretty much as vulnerable as you were at day one (unless you happened to be a monk).

So I am shooting for a system by which you create a class/race combo to your liking (want a gnome ranger? go for it). However, some races are definitely suited to certain classes. Like the strongest race with the most inherant stamina should always have an edge over anyone else when playing a warrior (if a warriors main stats are strength and stamina).

To give the sense of growing stronger I want to allow for not just extra hitpoints and mana (or whatever) each level but also for increased actual stats. Play a warrior and you get 2 points to your strength and stamina each level and possibly 2 free points that you can place where you please. Then on top of that you have boosts from armor and weapons. That is probably my main desire for the system. I would like armor to offer definite benefits of course but I''d like the primary focus to be on a players actual stats and abilities.

Right now I am thinking of ways to separate those who are suited and those who are not suited from a class. Working presently on a system where if a race IS suited then he gets some extra points added to his main stats for that class (a racial bonus). If a race is average then no bonus and if the race is not suited at all then possibly a deficit. Then at each level possibly something similar where suited races get +3 to main stats, average races get +2 and subpar races get +1. Can''t give them nothing at all because that would defeat the purpose of seemingly getting better. This would encourage the playing of races "suited" to a class but at the same time hopefully offering definite challenges for those hardcore in nature.

Then if I focus on the STARTING stats of a character for base calculations then it wouldn''t really matter much if a weak elf warrior actually finds a way to raise his stamina higher than a hulking ogre warrior because no matter what, the elf would not find it possible to START with as high a stamina or strength because at his base he is weak but has a lot more wisdom. If I focus on those base numbers for general hitpoint gain per level as opposed to overall stamina then I think the system would work.

I am thinking that it would allow stats to scale almost without bound without having to enforce penalties on higher stats like other games (another thing I am shooting for). Did it ever annoy you in EQ to finally get a stat over 250 just to realize that all that work didn''t pay off and you were probably better off buying hitpoint gear instead? Well I''d rather not have to do that.

Initially I wanted all things based strictly off of stats. Like, the amount of hitpoints you have at any given time would be directly related to how much stamina. I found this method to be very unstable because of the allowance of boosting stats each level and also with gear boosts. So I dumped that idea to try the present one.

Hard business but I''m hoping something decent comes from it.
Any thoughts?

Webby

Anonymous Post above is mine. Having trouble posting to website. Said page did not respond but I see it posted the message anyway as anonymous.

Webby

It might be worthwhile to make some other impetus to choose races, apart from stats. Maybe a social stigma attached to some, or varied charisma. I''m reminded of Oregon Trail, where the Schoolteacher was bloody near useless, but you got huge bonus points if you made it through, so people still chose him. Maybe Trolls can only be effectively healed by a Troll healer, and any other race trying to use healing skills on them would get a penalty to their success. Then people would choose strange matches between races and classes in order to fill a niche. After all, if high-level Troll warriors are looking for backup, they''ll probably be willing to give a Troll healer some sort of payment for services rendered. Supply and demand, and all that.

Or else balance the races in each job class. Sure, an Elvish archer shoots straighter than a human archer, but a human archer can use a wider array of gear, or has better defensive properties. That way an elf might outshoot him, but he''d be a better choice for more dangerous missions, since he''s so much hardier than the elf. 95% accuracy and 75% survivability beats 100% accuracy and 40% survivability any day.

Or give each race slightly different properties. I''m reminded of the Red mage from Final Fantasy. He''s more versatile, but less powerful. Let humans learn more skills, but once they reach a certain level of proficiency, it gets harder for them to improve. Orcs might only be able to really develop a handful of abilities, but they get really good really fast. So you could have an orc that kicks butt with his axe, and a human who isn''t quite so huge, but that human has a little bit of magic, some archery training, and a modicum of stealth to bring to bear against the orc.

Binding these differences to race, and then allowing the character to switch class (I actually hate formal classes, I''d rather see "classes" chosen or changed by shanging clothes, developing skills, and equipping gear.) mid-game, as skills, equipment and need make appropriate.

So if you are a human with plate armor and a greatsword, then you''re a knight, and you develop the appropriate skills, but you might later on feel the need to get a light tunic and a bow, and learn archery. Then, when you''re fighting against a few orcs, and they get too close for arrows, you can take up a dropped sword and put your remembered blade training to good use. It lends a sense of history to the character, as well.

I suggest you look into point based systems like GURPS for a base instead of D20. I hate being restricted by classes, much less having my choice of classes restricted because of race. Being able to buy whatever abilities I want makes the character I play more important, because I made the character just the way I want. It would definitely need some modifications for computer play(tweaking balance since there isnt a GM to notice that certain combinations are overpowered), but GURPS has a trillion optional rules and you could implement them all in a computer game to make for very complex play. I also like the default magic system of GURPS. Instead of being able to cast X spells per day, spells cost stamina to cast. Since stamina regenerates, you can cast more spells after a short time. Also, if you get a spell skill high enough, it costs less stamina to cast and takes less time. The magic system lets the mage choose if he wants to cast 10 weak spells or 1 strong one, which adds a lot imo. Also, because of stamina regeneration, a mage can almost always cast a really weak spell or two, or even a medium spell if he knows it enough to reduce the stamina cost. Its a lot more flexible and a lot more fun than the default AD&D/D&D magic system imo.

Not only is the magic system more flexible, but so is combat for warriors with things like range, swing time, damage type, armor type, etc. Using different weapons actually makes a difference in GURPS, while I felt like in AD&D/D&D they were pretty much all the same(of course a few have different ranges, and they might do 1 or 2 more/less damage, but they feel closer to the same thing than in GURPS).

May I make the point that in D20 Dungeons and Dragons, you may play every race/class combination?

I know about the race class combo in D20 AD&D but what has kept me away from a direct use of it was as stated that you can only cast x amount of spells per day. I figured that if I could only use part of a system then I''d just as soon design a new system all together. I think I''ll look into this GURPS system. I''ve head the name around campus with the local P&P players. Many mixed emotions but all related to P7P play and not vid games.

Any good sources on this syetes or is it published in a purchasable form in a bookstore maybe? I know I haven''t seen it where I guy books here unless the books aren''t exactly named GURPS.

Thanks for the heads up, this soounds more of what I am looking for, except that stamina and magic use thing. But that seems easy enough to relate to a mana pool. To me stamina seems to shout physical prowess and not mental or magical.

Thanks,
Webby

PS. Not sure if it is my connection today or what but it is taking me about 3-4 refreshes in order to make a successful post.

Just looked at some GURPS stuff on the web. It''s certainly a complete system and I am certain I can use (with proper permission) a lot of it. However, I have noticed that everything seems to happen on a fairly low scale. I didn''t see anything really related to experience and getting stronger over time which IMO is necessary in any good RGP. Players don''t want to start out weak and end up weak in a week

I''m looking for a system where players start out normal every day trolls and end up massivly powerful demitrolls who can rip trees out of the group with a flick of a finger (well almost)

I''ll keep looking and working.

Thanks again,

Webby

d20 = hp are determined by class, not race.

same with stats. you generate these stats separately, then add any racial bonuses, because races may be more apt to one attribute or another.

what race you are might give you an inherent bonus to a specific class (the reason, possibly, for being a specific race), and might have penalties for other classes, but you would get all of your abilities from your choice of class (training).

This system means you are what you train to be, not what you naturally are, however you might be better at what you do because of inherent capabilities.