About the XML "not being needed for programming." It may not be needed, but it can certainly help in some situations. I believe the latest Crystal Space engine uses xml to store map data.

If you want a full understand of xml go to www.w3schools.com. The have very thorough tutorials on xml, dtd, schema and just about everything related to XML.

I wrote an article about XML which should be in Dave''s pipeline. So we''ll see it in.. ooh, 5 years?

XML is a standard for storing and describing *any* type of information.

&#106avascript is a boiled-down bastard child of Java, designed for use in browsers for client-side scripting (DHTML, cookie management, browser detection, etc). <br><br>Superpig<br>- saving pigs from untimely fates, and when he''s not doing that, runs <A HREF="http://www.tbrf.net">The Binary Refinery</A>.

I used XML at one stage to store engine configurations. It's great because you can structure data logically:

e.g.

<config>
<display>
<width>800</width>
<height>600</height>
<depth>16</depth>
</display>
<paths>
... etc ...
</paths>
</config>

[edited by - krumms on February 11, 2003 5:24:14 AM]

One very powerful thing about XML, which I don''t think has been mentioned, is the fact that using XSLT you can transform XML in one format to XML (or another form of data) in another format. This is used lots in enterprise programming to ''wire'' different systems together - if one expects XML in one format - and your system outputs it in another, then you can transform it easily in-between - without having to modify either system.

I don''t see why this should stop at enterprise solutions - if we all stored 3D models/levels in XML then loading models into different games, editors would (theoretically) just be a case of providing an XSLT file to transform between them.

The beauty of this is that XSLT is, itself XML - so you can even transform XSLT into something else (eg documentation).

I think it''s only a matter of time before XML is used heavily in the game industry - at least at the tool level.

quote: Original post by krumms
I used XML at one stage to store engine configurations. It''s great because you can structure data logically:

Wow, that''s great because, like, it was impossible to structure data before XML was invented.

The difference is that it''s not a crappy old proprietary format and has a host of standard, supporting technologies - Xpath, XSLT, XQuery, DOM, Sax to name a few....

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
The difference is that it's not a crappy old proprietary format

That's right. It's a crappy new way of representing your proprietary formats as tagged Unicode. What makes you think that XML relieves you of the need to actually create a document format? Perhaps you somehow think the entire industry is suddenly going to standardise on a series of formats for every possible use, all through the magic of XML?

quote:
and has a host of standard, supporting technologies - Xpath, XSLT, XQuery, DOM, Sax to name a few....

<snigger>

[edited by - SabreMan on February 11, 2003 6:35:23 AM]

I don''t think that at all - if you''d read my early post you''d realise that the ''format'' you choose for your XML is not that important - as you can easily transform it to other formats. However I do think that, just as you have standard, non-xml, file formats you will eventually have standard XML formats for types of document that the industry decides on. This is already happening in some industries - eg the OASIS committee (very dull example).

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
I don''t think that at all - if you''d read my early post[...]

Posting anonymously makes it rather difficult to track what you have actually said.

quote:
[...]you''d realise that the ''format'' you choose for your XML is not that important - as you can easily transform it to other formats.

XML transforms are a simplified form of compilation process. There are already tons of tools for applying transforms to various forms of document and XSLT is merely one specialised example. The only thing that''s particular to XML is the amount of hype surrounding it.

quote:
However I do think that, just as you have standard, non-xml, file formats you will eventually have standard XML formats for types of document that the industry decides on.

Similarly, those will continue to be in the minority. And, as you point out, document standardisation has little to do with XML, and far more to do with the document format (such as what fields it holds, the format of each field, etc). XML is largely irrelevant to solving such a problem.

I suppose I mean if you''d read the other post - it could have been by anyone, still applies.

>XML transforms are a simplified form of compilation process.
ugh - so what?

>There are already tons of tools for applying transforms to various forms of document and XSLT is merely one specialised example.

Exactly my point - I''m not sure if you realise just how much XML IS used..I''m afraid it''s not all hype. It might not be used, at present, in the game industry - but most projects I''ve worked on from Defence to Publishing are and have been using it as the basis of new systems and wireing to legacey systems.

>XSLT is merely one specialised example. The only thing that''s particular to XML is the amount of hype surrounding it.

Oh and the fact that XSLT IS XML of course.

>Similarly, those will continue to be in the minority. And, as you point out, document standardisation has little to do with XML, and far more to do with the document format (such as what fields it holds, the format of each field, etc). XML is largely irrelevant to solving such a problem.

Really? I guess you said the same things about other emerging technolgies that you use everyday now..

I agree that XML has a load of hype and people do get blinded by it - you evidently have been. I use these technolgies every day - and have since before the XML hype - when its big sister SGML was already being used and had proven itself in the electronic publishing industry as a very powerful way to format and describe data.