quote: Original post by iNfuSeD
you hit the nail right on the head there.

Us Canadians are ahead of our time .

quote: Original post by iNfuSeD
this kind of complexity could easily be stretched out over the entire game.

Your post seemed to have confused many people into thinking you are trying to overwhelm the player with attribute (or other type of) information. What some don't seem to understand is that there is internal complexity, and published complexity...

[edited by - Shambles on September 15, 2002 11:12:10 AM]

quote:
Your post seemed to have confused many people into thinking you are trying to overwhelm the player with attribute (or other type of) information. What some don''t seem to understand is that there is internal complexity, and published complexity...

This is where my concern lays.

If a action that the player performs, such as attacking with a axe, generates "damage" in the range of 20 to 50 points depending on the internal formulas and such...then how is the player to interpret the "published" results?

The amount of "damage" could seem random...so why go through all the trouble of developing a complex system when a random number generator would work.

And if the intent is to get the player to realise that this "damage" can be variable depending on certain characteristics...then how is this to be "published", allowing the player to use the complex system to his advantage?

If all of this underlying complexity isn''t visable ("published") to the player, then he/she has no way to apprieciate it other then through trial and error experiments. This wouldn''t be a bad thing IF THE GAME DIDN''T REQUIRE THAT THE PLAYER FULLY TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE INTERNAL COMPLEXITY TO COMPLETE THE GAME...that is to say that the game can be finnished if the player just assumes such things are random.

But if the player is expected to develop play stratigies basied on the internal complexities to complete the game then there should be some indication of situations in which the "variables" are in his/her favor.

For example...there are several short swords in the game...each uses a different set of complex rules governing its ability to dish out damage:

Now if the swords look and are named identicaly...how is the player to know that one sword works better if he/she eats lots of fruit...while another works better during sunrise/sunset?

If this componet of the game design is something that the player must take advantage of to complete the game. then can you see where players will get frustraited and quit playing...The game would even seem buggy to them...as each seemingly identical sword they use produces different results.

But on the other hand if each sword is named and/or looks differently so the player can tell them appart...then how many swords would you plan on includeing? ... At what point would the game become micro-management hell for the player, who carries around dozens of swords, swapping them out as the situation calls for? ...

I see what you mean MSW. Perhaps the developer would be the actual only person who can appreciate the system fully. But in real life one would know if his left arm is stronger than his right, or vice-versa. So perhaps some sort of strength 'layer' which is displayed over a body in the statistics menu can show you how your strength is being divided across your body. You can use this 'layer' to make decisions on how you use your character. Maybe even a sort of similar system for weapon types.

I'm not too sure about your fruit/sunset swords... I'm not going to have too much (if any) of those type of weapons...

But I have to thank you MSW; you really gave me something to think about. I never for once though if/how the player would comprehend the complex internal system and make decisions with it in mind.

[edited by - Shambles on September 15, 2002 4:34:59 PM]

Whats everything refered to as a system for?

Anyways, in terms of complexity, the player shouldn''t be thrown too much. He(She) should be given just enough where its not immediately obvious, but still figure-out-able.

For example, lets say we want to change some Attack number into physical damage.

HP = HP - ATTACK

This is probably bad. Too simple, player figures out right away that a bigger ATTACK number means the battle ends quicker.

HP = HP - ATTACK ** 2 (attack squared)

A bit better. The player can start to figure out that more attack means more damage, but its not immediately obvious how the ATTACK value gets turned into HP damage.

HP = HP - ATTACK * STRENGTH

Now we have two variables. Some how these two values equate into damage, but the player has some more stuff to play with.

HP = HP - ATTACK * STRENGTH * (RandomFloatFromZeroToOne() + 1)

And here we cement it. Damage is anywhere from the multiple of two values to double their product. This number here by the way is roughly the same formula that final fantasy 9 uses for figuring this stuff out. What we now have is a layer of abstraction. The player can figure out that more of either number means more damage, and is required to strategically think about his equipment to maximize these values.

One more situation to consider is how to choose what real life elements are given abstract numbers. Having a left arm or right arm strength, for example, would only be worth it if the player could give the character items in appropriate spaces. Final Fantasy 2 (4j) did this with Left and Right handed characters. You didn''t have independant strengths, but you got enough to figure out not to mess with the character''s equipment too much. Unless the game really depends on the idea, certain things don''t require a number. Their values when needed could be generated from other things. That example could be a TIGHTROPE stat. It''s value could be generated from some other value, like a general purpose MOVE. Or a combination thereof. TIGHTROPE=(MOVE+JUMP)/2. Whats to be noted is "Is this a critical idea, or is it a special case." The character''s ability to climb the wall down at the MIDGAARD square is probably not something that would get it''s own number.

-> Will Bubel
-> Machine wash cold, tumble dry.

quote: Original post by MSW

This is where my concern lays.

If a action that the player performs, such as attacking with a axe, generates "damage" in the range of 20 to 50 points depending on the internal formulas and such...then how is the player to interpret the "published" results?

in reality, if we were to get into a fight.. how structured is that fight? not very structured. usually fights consist of hitting the opponent at every chance and doesn''t hold much structure to it, unless you train for days an months an years in fighting. you''re not goign to hit the opponent as hard every single time. what factors go into decided how much we''ve hit them for? who cares? you hit them. thats all you should care about.

in a pen an paper rpg, hits are not the exact same damage every time. usually its a more complex system to decide what the hit damage is.

in the rpg system, will the player care how it works ? probably not. he''ll begin to understand that if maybe he were to work his attacking arm out an muscle it up.. then it hits harder.

do we as humans care about all the random things that life throws at us? no not at all. we could try an care and argue about them but then we''re just big whiners. why should games behave any differently?




"The human mind is limited only by the bounds which we impose upon ourselves." -iNfuSeD

iNfuSeD:

Is the player SUPPOST to understand and take advantage of your complex system? Or are these complex systems to be some sort of hidden bonus for players who become aware of it?

THINK about it.



If the player IS to use the complex systems then the player must have a meens to understand how his/her actions effect things. This meens that at some level the "published" data will have to include the hidden complex systems. The hidden stuff CAN'T remain completely hidden.


If the player ISN'T required to use the hidden complex systems. Then why implament them? Why NOT spend more of your creative energy on things that the majority of players CAN apprieciate?





If it is important in your game for players to "build thier arm strength" then you MUST communicate this to them. They need a way to guage how well they are doing. They need to know if this effects more then combat. They need to know if/when they have become lax in this activity, and should persue more "arm strength building" activities.


But if it isn't all that important to your game, then what is? As you said "players prolly won't care how it works" ... So why not put your creative energy into the areas of the game that, you as the designer, have chosen for the player to care about?



[edited by - MSW on September 15, 2002 11:09:21 PM]