Would people consider computer programs that simulate pleasureable past times as games? For example, I''d be interested in creating a scuba diving simulator and sailing sim but I''m not sure if people would consider these "games". I like scuba diving, and I think it has good potential even as a learning tool, but there''s really no "winning". Ditto for a sailing sim, though you could easily introduce a race aspect to it ("America''s Cup" anyone?). I guess I just have a problem with people having preconceived notions of what games are. To me, any program that people will enjoy can be considered a game.

It''s at least entertainment media.

Games are one form of that.
So are simulations of enjoyable activities.

Games, if you compare them to those from the days of old, usually involve some sort of goal with a limited set of rules and/or pieces. Sometimes there''s a score involved.

That''s my take, anyway.

These days a SIM is just a genre of Computer/Console entertainment and that mouthful has always been refered to as Games.

So yes a Sim is a game in that sense and besides, most Sims have goals even if they are abstract like learning more or getting better at running your Sim Boat or Sim Empire. In fact many Sims needlessly add goals, I guess because marketing bods are reading papers on buyer perceptions etc.

How many ''Sims'' have you finished a level on and wanted to keep plugging away to make the city bigger or find out all that you could do?

I think you should really consider if what you are doing has an audience. If you want to be rich are there peeps out there who want to run a yatch (there are millions fly planes afterall such as the MS offering) that are true sims. If you just like the idea and want a hobby dive right in! (sorry about the pun)

Anything you work on makes you better, refines your ideas and broadens your horizons, things that you are interested in do that faster, broader and with less pressure. To give an example; phase one: yatch sim; phase two: sail your yatch to the IOW and race; phase three: sail your yatch to a remote isle and go diving! You now have one project with three options and a broader audience BUT its about what you like! Always the best type of project!

Good Luck

quote: Original post by Dauntless
Would people consider computer programs that simulate pleasureable past times as games?

Have you seen Auran''s Trainz or Microsoft train Simulator? What about Microsoft Flight Simulator or Wings Unlimited?

The enduring popularity of this class products is sufficient validation. So get crackin'' on your sims!

6 Words: Deer Hunter Deer Hunter Deer Hunter

I''ve seen this post come up fairly often on the gamedev forums. I don''t want this to sound rude, because I am really curious and would like a reply: Does it really matter if sims are games or not?

One time I saw the question of sims being games posted and a huge flame war started, each person posting many definitions of what "true games" are, and they never really came to a solution in the end.

I actually haven''t seen any of the train sims, though I was curious about them (I''m more interested in railraod tycoon than the actual running of a train though).

The scuba diving sim I''ve had in the back of my mind for awhile now, so who knows maybe I can start coding the decompression tables of the various organizations (or find some of the algorithms dive computer makers have) for the decompression calculations...fun ehh?

Actually, I just had a really stupid idea enter my head. How about "Sim Computer". You buy computer parts to build your "dream computer", and basically show off your modded case to all your other geek buddies, and compare your sim 3dMark2001SE scores to show off. Then you can make the sequal "Sim Network" in which you try to send worms, viruses and malicious trojans to grind your opponents networks to a halt...thereby making anyone with the Sim savvy to run *nix works inherently superior

Taiyou-
I think half of the "debates" here in the forum are really about semantics, not actual deliberations on game design methodology. So much is subjective about game design as it is that when players don''t even talk about terminology on the same denotational level...well, it kind of defeats the point of having a forum in the first place.

So I think it''s important to get baseline definitions...no matter how seemingly insignificant or obvious it may seem...out in the open. Look at debates about what "fun" is, or what "art" is. Personally, my definition of a game is something that people have fun doing, whether it simulates a true to life action, or whether it''s a made up invention that stimulates the player''s "fun center"

The line between simulation and game is goals. The goal behind a simulation is to recreate a real life situation and prolong it as long as possible. Games *can* simulate real world situtations, but focus on rewarding for accomplishing tasks. It isn''t exactly rewarding to know that the purpose of the game is to play it for the rest of your life.

Also, you have to note that you are not actually simulating the actual scuba process, you are just simulating the process of watching and directing the simulation. So, yes, scuba is fun, but watching it probably isn''t as fun. If you want a game out of this, tell your players to do things like photograph certain types of fish or plants, or retrieve stuff that fell into the water.

-> Will Bubel
-> Machine wash cold, tumble dry.

I would consider nearly all sim programs games. Games need to have goals, but all sims do. A flying simulation gives you the goal of successfully piloting your plane and reaching your destination or flying by instrument or overcoming bad weather. SimCity had the goal of expansion. Any simulation gives you the goal of successfully doing the task it simulates, be it flying, driving, scuba diving, etc.

~CGameProgrammer( );